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Thread: Mattel is releasing a Gender-Neutral Doll

  1. #151
    Heroic Warrior Mark M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam_Prince of Eternia View Post
    b-i-n-g-o.
    No, perhaps I phrased it wrong but I never at anytime said bullying of any type was okay.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Sword2Blanket View Post
    Ok cool! I think we're making some progress!

    So the line for you personally on what should be normalized is somewhere between gay and trans.

    Do you think there's any chance that you will say the same thing about the normalization of trans people in 20 years?
    Again perhaps my phrasing was a bit too harsh. I don't agree with people changing their gender, that is only my opinion. But I have no problem with anyone who is trans.

  2. #152
    Heroic Warrior IceyCat's Avatar
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    I find some of these posts really rude and condescending. Mark is a grown man who is entitled to his opinion. You do not have to beat him over the head with YOUR opinions and try to 'teach' him. He already said bullying in ANY form is not OK.

    This thread needs to go the way of the dodo.
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  3. #153
    Life is good Dice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark M View Post
    No, perhaps I phrased it wrong but I never at anytime said bullying of any type was okay.

    Again perhaps my phrasing was a bit too harsh. I don't agree with people changing their gender, that is only my opinion. But I have no problem with anyone who is trans.
    No you didn't. Just made a couple of statements that some of us don't agree with (myself included). That started a wave of back and forth that grows into much more stronger argument than you really ever meant. It happens.


    People question you (and me when the situation arises) because they want us to think about why we think the things we do. I personally like that better than just being told I'm wrong. I might have a good answer for them, sometimes not. But I like being able to affirm my beliefs or change them based on really giving them more thought or study. And even if some of the posts come off snarky, I think that most are just intended to make us think.
    We can’t pretend that the Trump Presidency is this weird anomaly that we can just kind of recover from by returning to the old normal. We are where we are because normal didn’t work. - Pete Buttigieg

  4. #154
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    Agreed on all points.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice View Post
    No you didn't. Just made a couple of statements that some of us don't agree with (myself included). That started a wave of back and forth that grows into much more stronger argument than you really ever meant. It happens.


    People question you (and me when the situation arises) because they want us to think about why we think the things we do. I personally like that better than just being told I'm wrong. I might have a good answer for them, sometimes not. But I like being able to affirm my beliefs or change them based on really giving them more thought or study. And even if some of the posts come off snarky, I think that most are just intended to make us think.

  5. #155
    +2 Against Harpies Sword2Blanket's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IceyCat View Post
    I find some of these posts really rude and condescending. Mark is a grown man who is entitled to his opinion. You do not have to beat him over the head with YOUR opinions and try to 'teach' him. He already said bullying in ANY form is not OK.

    This thread needs to go the way of the dodo.
    Aaaaand we've come full circle back to the irony vortex. Remember when I said this thread should have been in the Tar Swamp and everyone was like "Lulz, why?" Remember when I said people constantly spouted their political rhetoric in this forum completely unchecked and how obnoxious it was? THIS IS WHY. I knew that if people were actually challenged on the things they say, people would immediately start complaining about it. As a wise woman once told me: "There is a handy dandy ignore feature if people with opposing opinions bother you that much."

    Either NO ONE should get to spew their political beliefs outside of Tar Swamp (like I advocated for to begin with), OR people who do should be prepared to have their ideas challenged by others who may disagree. I honestly don't care one way or the other, but it needs to be one or the other.

    Mark is absolutely entitled to his opinion and no one is trying to force him to believe anything else. However, after being challenged on what he's said, he's acknowledged that several things he said were harsher rhetoric than what he actually felt. He's also clarified several things he said that were perhaps harmfully ambiguous. I think that's a good thing. Because I've had the opportunity to engage with him and kind of nail down where he stands and what he actually believes in deeper detail, I respect his position a lot more than I did initially. Isn't that good?

  6. #156
    Heroic Warrior Mark M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dice View Post
    No you didn't. Just made a couple of statements that some of us don't agree with (myself included). That started a wave of back and forth that grows into much more stronger argument than you really ever meant. It happens.


    People question you (and me when the situation arises) because they want us to think about why we think the things we do. I personally like that better than just being told I'm wrong. I might have a good answer for them, sometimes not. But I like being able to affirm my beliefs or change them based on really giving them more thought or study. And even if some of the posts come off snarky, I think that most are just intended to make us think.
    I think the comment I made that most of you seemed to take real offence with was when I said some people shouldn't maybe do things to provoke bullies/attackers. But again I only meant that comment in terms of for the child's own safety if expressing their sexuality or gender would lead to harassment and physical harm. And again I only said that based on my school experience as a catholic at a 99% protestant high school as we had to be street smart and not do things that would reveal our religion and avoid any trouble. There was a couple other catholics at the school but they were very few.

  7. #157
    Heroic Warrior IceyCat's Avatar
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    Sword2Blanket - I didn't say anything about someone talking about politics, I am talking about YOU talking down to people and acting like a jerk who needs to police the way other people think. You have spent the past few pages ganging up on and bullying Mark.

    Edited to add: I just went back through and re-read every single comment I made in this post and there was nothing I said that was overtly political. I discussed the topic as it pertains to me being a parent and how my friends and family who are trans and gay react to certain things. So you can continue to paint me whatever paint brush you wish and allude to what you think my political affiliation is. I guarantee you are wrong on most fronts.
    Last edited by IceyCat; October 11, 2019 at 05:51pm.
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  8. #158
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    Then why are you posting as opposed to hitting that Ignore button? And you obviously do care or you wouldn't be posting. Methinks the man doth protest too much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sword2Blanket View Post
    Aaaaand we've come full circle back to the irony vortex. Remember when I said this thread should have been in the Tar Swamp and everyone was like "Lulz, why?" Remember when I said people constantly spouted their political rhetoric in this forum completely unchecked and how obnoxious it was? THIS IS WHY. I knew that if people were actually challenged on the things they say, people would immediately start complaining about it. As a wise woman once told me: "There is a handy dandy ignore feature if people with opposing opinions bother you that much."

    Either NO ONE should get to spew their political beliefs outside of Tar Swamp (like I advocated for to begin with), OR people who do should be prepared to have their ideas challenged by others who may disagree. I honestly don't care one way or the other, but it needs to be one or the other.

    Mark is absolutely entitled to his opinion and no one is trying to force him to believe anything else. However, after being challenged on what he's said, he's acknowledged that several things he said were harsher rhetoric than what he actually felt. He's also clarified several things he said that were perhaps harmfully ambiguous. I think that's a good thing. Because I've had the opportunity to engage with him and kind of nail down where he stands and what he actually believes in deeper detail, I respect his position a lot more than I did initially. Isn't that good?
    - - - Updated - - -

    Imo, one should never, ever need to explain or apologize for expressing themselves, and, further, no one should take offense at your expression your opinion, no matter how different it is from their own. Quite the opposite. They should be willing to defend with their lives, as I and every other serviceman and servicewoman have, your right to express yourself.

    From Andy Shepherd in THE AMERICAN PRESIDENT, imo one of the greatest quotes of all time and the bedrock upon which democracy was built and exists:

    "America isn't easy. America is advanced citizenship. You've gotta want it bad, cause it's gonna put up a fight. It's gonna say 'You want free speech? Let's see you acknowledge a man whose words make your blood boil, and who's standing center stage and advocating at the top of his lungs that which you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of yours.' You want to claim this land as the land of the free? Then the symbol of your country cannot just be a flag. The symbol also has to be one of its citizens exercising his right to burn that flag in protest. Now show me that, defend that, celebrate that in your classrooms. Then you can stand up and sing about the land of the free."

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark M View Post
    I think the comment I made that most of you seemed to take real offence with was when I said some people shouldn't maybe do things to provoke bullies/attackers. But again I only meant that comment in terms of for the child's own safety if expressing their sexuality or gender would lead to harassment and physical harm. And again I only said that based on my school experience as a catholic at a 99% protestant high school as we had to be street smart and not do things that would reveal our religion and avoid any trouble. There was a couple other catholics at the school but they were very few.

  9. #159
    Heroic Warrior IceyCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heeeere's Olesker! View Post
    Imo, one should never, ever need to explain or apologize for expressing themselves, and, further, no one should take offense at your expression your opinion, no matter how different it is from their own. Quite the opposite. They should be willing to defend with their lives, as I and every other serviceman and servicewoman have, your right to express yourself.

    From Andy Shepherd in THE AMERICAN PRESIDENT, imo one of the greatest quotes of all time and the bedrock upon which democracy was built and exists:

    "America isn't easy. America is advanced citizenship. You've gotta want it bad, cause it's gonna put up a fight. It's gonna say 'You want free speech? Let's see you acknowledge a man whose words make your blood boil, and who's standing center stage and advocating at the top of his lungs that which you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of yours.' You want to claim this land as the land of the free? Then the symbol of your country cannot just be a flag. The symbol also has to be one of its citizens exercising his right to burn that flag in protest. Now show me that, defend that, celebrate that in your classrooms. Then you can stand up and sing about the land of the free."
    This 100%! I have always liked the Voltaire quote: 'I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend, to the death, your right to say it.' I have absolutely no problem with people expressing their view points, even if I vehemently disagree with what they are saying. What I do have a problem with is that sort of gang mentality and trying to force someone to agree with a point. It is OK to have a difference of opinion. Poor Mark is not some Archie Bunker type that needs reprogramming - LOL!
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  10. #160
    Heroic Warrior Lokus's Avatar
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    Sooo it's a boyish dolly without a ding a ling between its legs . What's the big deal ? Most dolls are not anatomically correct . Most kids don't think on these deep adult issues either .

  11. #161
    Heroic Warrior IceyCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lokus View Post
    Sooo it's a boyish dolly without a ding a ling between its legs.
    We already have one of those, he is called Ken - LOL!

    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither!"

  12. #162
    Heroic Warrior wyldman11's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lokus View Post
    Sooo it's a boyish dolly without a ding a ling between its legs . What's the big deal ? Most dolls are not anatomically correct . Most kids don't think on these deep adult issues either .
    Individuals when they look at something often tend to look at that thing differently. Examples from various types of media.

    In video games. Many individuals, those typically of the genetically male disposition, see the characters as an extension of themselves in some form. In older games, it was the one female selectable character that was set aside for if and when a girl actually decided to play the game. These individuals couldn't get why a guy would choose the female. Three reasons, all built off the base that that individual doesn't see the pixels as an extension of themselves. The preferred the style (fighting for example) for that character, the knew that female characters were actually given a higher median stat than the male characters, or they just liked looking the female character.

    In a similar fashion, in regards specifically to rock music, women listen to it because they want to get with the guys of the band, men want to be the guys in the band. Again, when those individuals saw a specifically male listening to a female rock band (led or all members) they had a dissonance with why guys would do that.

    When some kids buy a toy, they see themselves in said toy. Either an ideal they want to become, or as they see themselves now . So while the kids may not be able to express that as well as an adult that is the case. When a kid can't find a doll, or action figure they can express themselves into or onto they may find themselves struggling with their own identity and many other 'issues.' I can also become expensive for parents trying to please their childs play time.

    yes we as adults are overanalyzing the situation, I do agree. But that's in many cases how we were raised, in ways look at the discussion that broke out.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by IceyCat View Post
    We already have one of those, he is called Ken - LOL!

    With the post I just made the time it took, one of the points I was going to make. As someone pointed out, most male dolls are this weirdly mix of masculine femininity. But it got lost in all the time I was typing and doing other things.
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  13. #163
    +2 Against Harpies Sword2Blanket's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heeeere's Olesker! View Post
    Then why are you posting as opposed to hitting that Ignore button? And you obviously do care or you wouldn't be posting. Methinks the man doth protest too much.



    - - - Updated - - -

    Imo, one should never, ever need to explain or apologize for expressing themselves, and, further, no one should take offense at your expression your opinion, no matter how different it is from their own. Quite the opposite. They should be willing to defend with their lives, as I and every other serviceman and servicewoman have, your right to express yourself.

    From Andy Shepherd in THE AMERICAN PRESIDENT, imo one of the greatest quotes of all time and the bedrock upon which democracy was built and exists:

    "America isn't easy. America is advanced citizenship. You've gotta want it bad, cause it's gonna put up a fight. It's gonna say 'You want free speech? Let's see you acknowledge a man whose words make your blood boil, and who's standing center stage and advocating at the top of his lungs that which you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of yours.' You want to claim this land as the land of the free? Then the symbol of your country cannot just be a flag. The symbol also has to be one of its citizens exercising his right to burn that flag in protest. Now show me that, defend that, celebrate that in your classrooms. Then you can stand up and sing about the land of the free."
    I respect you a lot and appreciate you sticking up for your friend. However, I can't say I completely agree with you on this one.

    I don't have any interest in using the ignore feature. I was merely returning the advice given to me. I realize that was equally petty on my part, and for that I apologize Icey.

    I wasn't suggesting I didn't care about this issue; I was saying that I don't care which way the rules of this forum are enforced as long as they're as clear and consistent as possible.

    The latter part of your post is a bizarre conflation of two entirely different concepts: freedom of speech and challenging ideas through debate/discussion/conversation. No one was suggesting that Mark should be silenced because of his ideas. Quite the contrary. We engaged with him for several pages encouraging him to expound and clarify his beliefs, while also offering different perspectives that he may (or may not if he so chooses) consider.

    And of course there are ideas that should offend people. If someone suggested rounding up all the Catholics and putting them in concentration camps, I imagine everyone here would find that idea offensive, because it is. And no, I'm not suggesting anything said here compares to that, nor am I saying that anything was necessarily offensive at all. I'm simply saying I reject that general premise.

  14. #164
    Heroic Warrior wyldman11's Avatar
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    Probably the safest example I think of that isn't really that extreme on the matter.

    When Harry Potter first came out, many individuals and groups in Churches opposed it quite vocally. While others of us enjoyed a work of fiction that we could actually see certain spiritual concepts being showcased in the books. Many of us took Paul's advice in regards to eating meat sacrificed to idols, in front of those or in company it might cause a problem abstain.

    I was on college break at a Children's camp we did, and I would at times sneak off to read parts of the most recently released book. There were adults who let me and were asking questions, since they were like minded about the books. But together we knew who not to talk in front of or let know I was reading it while the kids chowed down on dinner. The adults who were with me even ran interference with some of those who took a more negative look at the books. In fact one was the wife of one of the pastor's of one of the church.

    While not bullying, it shows how it might be smarter to just not bring up in some company. In this case, the don't fight in front of the kids was applicable (probably one of the few times).

    Did I at times engage some of those individuals in more 'safe' environments about the subject? Yes. I mean it's still an issue with some, but much less of a hot topic these days, but at the time was it worth destroying in some cases a friendship over? No. Luckily I was and still am, known as playing devil's advocate so when I would challenge them they thought I was more than likely coming from that perspective.

    But hey, a Patriots fan sat in the Cowboys celebrity box last week.
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  15. #165
    Heroic Warrior IceyCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sword2Blanket View Post
    I realize that was equally petty on my part, and for that I apologize Icey.
    No worries. I am sorry for being snarky and for saying you are a jerk. That was not nice! My #1 concern in life is preserving the innocence of children, especially my own. I try not to focus on the rough parts, but I had a REALLY bad childhood (in part). That makes me really sensitive when it comes to protecting children. I had to deal with way too many adult things when I should have been able to be a kid, so I get pretty passionate about subjects that involve kids. It does not come from a place of hate, nor is it political to me in any way. I just want kids to be kids for as long as humanly possible.
    Last edited by IceyCat; October 11, 2019 at 10:04pm.
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  16. #166
    Heroic Warrior Lokus's Avatar
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    Well if I was a 8 years old once again . School sucks , girls are gross in rl land . Tv land girls are okay.
    No such thing as sex ....


    If this was a surprise Xmas present , yes I would play with Ze and take care of it as I would my other toys . Given the choice to buy Polly Peter Brown , I would decline . This toy looks the size of a newborn baby or teddy bears. I associate that with girls and my toddler years . I would think girls would want this toy more than I . Heck I would like a my little pony or even a care bear . The mean girl at school says my sylvanian family are girl toys that kinda bugged me .

    The toys that got my heart racing was the brand product , tv serial adventures advertising stuff. Guy , girl or in between it would not matter I would want that . Heman , Thundercat , Ateam ,Air wolf , smurfs .
    Did I buy other toys yes of course but I did not value them as much . The ones from tv land were just a tad more special to me .

    If dolly boy had her own manly adventures in Eunuch Corn Land every week on TV . That would sell me . It would not matter if it was girl , guy , in between or one of the other 26 genders . The magic sentence here is Sex Does Not Exist .

    Is Mattel going to do this product justice and make a cartoon because that's what kiddies really want and that would help sales .
    Or is this just a public relations stunt to show everyone that they are a progressive company while making their next uber stereotype defined gender toyline .
    Last edited by Lokus; October 12, 2019 at 03:27am.

  17. #167
    Heroic Warrior Mark M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lokus View Post
    Well if I was a 8 years old once again . School sucks , girls are gross in rl land . Tv land girls are okay.
    No such thing as sex ....


    If this was a surprise Xmas present , yes I would play with Ze and take care of it as I would my other toys . Given the choice to buy Polly Peter Brown , I would decline . This toy looks the size of a newborn baby or teddy bears. I associate that with girls and my toddler years . I would think girls would want this toy more than I . Heck I would like a my little pony or even a care bear . The mean girl at school says my sylvanian family are girl toys that kinda bugged me .

    The toys that got my heart racing was the brand product , tv serial adventures advertising stuff. Guy , girl or in between it would not matter I would want that . Heman , Thundercat , Ateam ,Air wolf , smurfs .
    Did I buy other toys yes of course but I did not value them as much . The ones from tv land were just a tad more special to me .

    If dolly boy had her own manly adventures in Eunuch Corn Land every week on TV . That would sell me . It would not matter if it was girl , guy , in between or one of the other 26 genders . The magic sentence here is Sex Does Not Exist .

    Is Mattel going to do this product justice and make a cartoon because that's what kiddies really want and that would help sales .
    Or is this just a public relations stunt to show everyone that they are a progressive company while making their next uber stereotype defined gender toyline .
    You have a good point about marketing the doll with a TV show.

    When I was a kid I didn't care about the character's gender or who the toy was intended for to me they were just toys of my favourite characters from cartoons and movies. A lot of people didn't want action figures of girls but I didn't care I was extremely happy getting the action figures of Cheetara, Pumyra, Evil Lynn, Princess Leia, Anne Lewis, Catwoman and many others. Even in High School I liked the Buffy the Vampire Slayer figures and all the various WWE female wrestlers.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by IceyCat View Post
    I get pretty passionate about subjects that involve kids. It does not come from a place of hate, nor is it political to me in any way. I just want kids to be kids for as long as humanly possible.
    I completely agree with you on this.

  18. #168
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    Things are mostly staying the the right side of Tar Swampiness, so let's continue to keep the discussion civil, non-political, and away from sexuality. This is a topic that skirts dangerously close to some hot-button topics which are No-Nos for this area of the Forum. I'm actually impressed it's gone this well for so long.
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  19. #169
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    Well said.

    I have to say that in the last year -- and even in The Tar Swamp -- I've seen a palpable shift toward civility and respectfulness. It's surely not true for everyone, but then some people just like to be contentious. But overall it seems we're able to exchange ideas without the kind of vitriol there was a year or so ago.

    I'm sure part of this is due to the mods. But part of it is also because orgers are making a conscious attempt to not be so hostile.

    It pleases this aging writer...greatly.

    UPDATE:

    And then, at the far opposite end of the spectrum from this thread, there's this:

    https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/17/europ...hnk/index.html

    Quote Originally Posted by Uki View Post
    Things are mostly staying the the right side of Tar Swampiness, so let's continue to keep the discussion civil, non-political, and away from sexuality. This is a topic that skirts dangerously close to some hot-button topics which are No-Nos for this area of the Forum. I'm actually impressed it's gone this well for so long.
    Last edited by Heeeere's Olesker!; October 17, 2019 at 01:55pm.

  20. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heeeere's Olesker! View Post
    UPDATE:

    And then, at the far opposite end of the spectrum from this thread, there's this:

    https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/17/europ...hnk/index.html
    That is the sort of article that if it appeared on April 1st, you'd be raising your eyebrows and telling CNN you're not that credulous...
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  21. #171
    +2 Against Harpies Sword2Blanket's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heeeere's Olesker! View Post
    UPDATE:

    And then, at the far opposite end of the spectrum from this thread, there's this:

    https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/17/europ...hnk/index.html
    That slime is super cool! The wiki entry is even better: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physarum_polycephalum

    They even used it to control a robot way back in 2006!

  22. #172
    SoH Supporter He-Dad's Avatar
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    I think I'm going to buy my niece one or two of these for Christmas. You get lots of accessories and the combinations you can make are so numerous that I cant imagine her getting bored with it. They look fantastic and the reviews are they are sturdier and easier to pose than Barbie or Monster High.

  23. #173
    Shhhh... It's a Secret... Midwinter's Avatar
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    “Through research, we heard that kids don’t want their toys dictated by gender norms.” - Kim Culmone, Senior Vice President of Mattel Fashion Doll Design

    Interesting that it doesn’t say the kids asked for this, but that they heard kids want this (which means it could come from anothe source like guardians, psychiatrists; etc...)

    My kids (boy and girl) both said they would love figures they could customize and build themselves, but think these look terrible and missed the mark. They took all the fun out of the toy to make sure a child could break down gender norms? I’m not even sure what gender norms are any longer. Other than I rarely see a boy wearing a dress or skirt I see kids with short and long hair, all different colors for both genders, and my kids already mix and match their clothes already.
    In Midwinter, the heat from the oven baking my Shrinky Dinks is all I need!

  24. #174
    Not my Tempo Fendi's Avatar
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    I mean if we can pick like 3 muscular plain doll and 5 skinny regular doll. Why not?

    NOT QUITE MY TEMPO

  25. #175
    Heroic Daddy to Hermione! Uki's Avatar
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    I kinda want a pet blob.
    MOTUC Most Wanted: Skeleteen, Prince Keldor, Captain Randor, The Great Black Wizard, Lady Slither, Spirit, Tuvar, Baddra, Cursed Marzo, Tug-O-War, Scrollos, Songster, Mini-Comics Spirit of Castle Grayskull, and for the love of the Sorceress and Julie Winston, ODIPHUS!!!

    Instagram: Just_Thommy

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