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Thread: Mattel is releasing a Gender-Neutral Doll

  1. #51
    Heroic Warrior IceyCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark M View Post
    To be fair though, the majority of Mattel's male dolls are already very feminine looking. Perhaps if they want to be ''inclusive'' they should actually start releasing dolls that actually look like a males.
    Yeah I have to laugh every time my kids see the fashionista line. Man bun, barista Ken is the hotness!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark M View Post
    There is a limit to what should be normalized.
    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknew...Kgf?li=BBoPRmx

    The lesbian take on transitioning is very interesting.
    Last edited by dedset13; October 10, 2019 at 08:44am.
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  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by IceyCat View Post
    Yeah I have to laugh every time my kids see the fashionista line. Man bun, barista Ken is the hotness! It was like Mattel woke up one day and said 'Lets stop selling pretty Barbies and instead sell circus freaks!' It was a joke people, do not freak out :P

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    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknew...Kgf?li=BBoPRmx

    The lesbian take on transitioning is very interesting.
    Most man bun/top knots are terrible looking.
    I ended up getting a male girls fashion doll when I was really young. He was wearing a suit...I thought it was Superman. So much disappointment when there was no Superman outfit underneath.

    That is a pretty interesting interview regarding people changing gender.
    People can't change their gender and it is morally wrong for people trying to tell them they can.
    There is no such thing as anyone being able to naturally change their gender.
    All this nonsense about people changing gender and wanting to identify as X just reminds me of that South Park episode were Kyle becomes taller and black so he can play on the basketball team then his Dad ends up getting changed so he can be a dolphin. Come to think of it Mr Garrison became a woman for a while before becoming a man again.
    Last edited by Mark M; October 7, 2019 at 12:06pm.

  3. #53
    Heroic Warrior IceyCat's Avatar
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    There actually was one man I knew who could pull off a man bun. Dude was smoking hot on the outside, but his attitude was VERY unattractive. So I guess in the end he was still unattractive - LOL!
    Last edited by IceyCat; October 7, 2019 at 12:45pm.
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  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark M View Post
    There is a limit to what should be normalized.
    Sure but that will always be dictated by a majority vote by society. Things change all the time and what is viewed as normal common sense today may be considered barbaric thinking 50 years from today.
    We can’t pretend that the Trump Presidency is this weird anomaly that we can just kind of recover from by returning to the old normal. We are where we are because normal didn’t work. - Pete Buttigieg

  5. #55
    Unmotivated webcomicker KidTDragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark M View Post
    Never give in.. never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honor and good sense. Never yield to force.. never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy - Winston Churchill
    So anyone who doesn't fit your rigid, narrow definition of "normal" is the enemy, huh?
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  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark M View Post

    There is a limit to what should be normalized.
    I wouldn't go so far as to calling things 'The Enemy'....but I think there SHOULD be a cap on Craziness.

    this 'gender neutral' nonsense is but one of a few things I think that take life a tad too far into the crazy category.

    But, that's all for the tar swamp
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  7. #57
    Heroic Warrior Mark M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KidTDragon View Post
    So anyone who doesn't fit your rigid, narrow definition of "normal" is the enemy, huh?
    No, you missed the point of the quote. Sometimes people have to stand their ground and stand up for their beliefs.
    I guess the word enemy in the quote sounds bit harsh lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shredder View Post
    I wouldn't go so far as to calling things 'The Enemy'....but I think there SHOULD be a cap on Craziness.

    this 'gender neutral' nonsense is but one of a few things I think that take life a tad too far into the crazy category.

    But, that's all for the tar swamp
    That is just the wording in the quote, I'm not calling anyone the enemy lol.
    Last edited by Mark M; October 7, 2019 at 02:33pm.

  8. #58
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    Thanks for that, Icey. For the record, I never think that of you. I love our long standing civil and respectful interactions, my friend.

    Quote Originally Posted by IceyCat View Post
    I mean this respectfully, I have no clue what you are saying. I do not hate anyone. In my personal experience, and in the experience of MANY of my friends and family, inclusivity rarely means what people say it is. It is a buzz word that is meant to make you feel a certain way, but it rarely ever means what is implied (again in MY personal experience).

    For example, my cousin is mixed race. His Mom is white and his Dad is black. For a while he ran with a crew in college (of ALL white folks mind you) that respected his 'world view and perspective' being a person of color. Well they did, up until this past election. My cousin (who was a staunch Democrat) decided to vote for Donald Trump.

    His college friends abandoned him, but not before telling him that his opinion no longer mattered because he was a slave to his whiteness. His super inclusive group that accepted anyone not only cast him out, but they made sure that other people were aware of his horrible transgression. The way he explains it is that he became a social leper on campus and ended up moving home.

    I can tell you countless other stories just like this one. In theory the idea of being inclusive looks good on paper, but the human element ALWAYS taints even the best ideas. People have become VERY tribal and inclusivity only extends to people who think a certain way or vote a certain way.

    Edited to add: I find it funny that there is this movement to force inclusion. I went to college in a pretty white bread town, but the school was great so it attracted a lot of students from NYC. Our campus was VERY diverse. I never had to be told to 'include' someone. My group of close friends in college was very diverse. I even had a trans friend LONG before it became socially acceptable.

    Sometimes when I view the world these days I am reminded of Gretchen Wieners from Mean Girls. Everyone seems to be trying to force 'fetch' to happen instead of allowing things to progress organically.

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    No worries, Jack! I never get mad or even irritated by a difference of opinion, so if you ever think that just PM me

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    Quote Originally Posted by IceyCat View Post
    Edited to add: I find it funny that there is this movement to force inclusion. I went to college in a pretty white bread town, but the school was great so it attracted a lot of students from NYC. Our campus was VERY diverse. I never had to be told to 'include' someone. My group of close friends in college was very diverse. I even had a trans friend LONG before it became socially acceptable.

    I grew up in Paramus NJ. Basically a smaller version of NY, with less skyscrapers. We saw people from ALL walks of life and cultures, and it was super fun to live in as a kid. Two of my friends from up the street where adopted mexicans. down the street was the jewish side of the block. One of our friends was also from the Ukraine (IIRC) and the other from Greece.

    It was just normal to have people of all walks of life, and I never once questioned it, or thought of it as strange. or thought I shouldn't be watching or doing something because I wasn't of a certain race or gender.


    Then we moved to a different part of Jersey. Mostly rich white kids...lets just say, I didn't have as much fun in that town as I did in Paramus...and I REALLY wish I could go back to Paramus one day. the town also isn't nearly as outgoing. where in the former you saw lots of people outside working on lawns and just playing in driveways, in the latter, you'll be lucky to see a living person jogging once a month. ugh. I really miss the melting pot culture.
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    I hear ya, Shredder. I like our new neighborhood. It is a good mix of folks. So far the family we have become closest to are a Native American family. They are pretty much at our house every weekend and I watch her son on days his school has off (because she is a teacher in said school and does not have off). We get into some pretty spirited discussions, but I love learning about her heritage and customs. She dances at tribal events and I would love to go to one. I am not sure though if I would be welcome. She said her family on the reservation is not really fond of white folks
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  11. #61
    Unmotivated webcomicker KidTDragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark M View Post
    No, you missed the point of the quote. Sometimes people have to stand their ground and stand up for their beliefs.
    Even if their beliefs are to oppress and bully a particular group of people that don't want to harm anyone and just want to live their lives?
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    Quote Originally Posted by KidTDragon View Post
    Even if their beliefs are to oppress and bully a particular group of people that don't want to harm anyone and just want to live their lives?
    We are at the point though where that really is not the case. Actually, I should correct myself. The trans people I know do not want to harm anyone and just want to live their lives, the activists that say they support and speak for them bludgeon everyone over the head with their ideals. The mantra now is that you not only have to accept, but you have to be an ally or you are a phobic person. Whatever happened to co-exist or live and let live?

    Edited to add: I do not think it is the trans community that is pushing all of this nonsense, I think it is the activists who claim to be allies. Once they sink their teeth into a cause they go rabid. One of my closest friends has a trans child who is in middle school. That child was blending and had no issues at all in school. Then there was that big push about the bathrooms and they stopped going to the bathroom at school out of fear of becoming a target. Imagine being some where for eight hours a day (or however long a school day is) and trying to hold it for that long.

    Another trans friend of mine said she NEVER had an issue going to the ladies room. Now she sees men, dressed as men, going into the women's room and she feels unsafe. You would NEVER know that she was a MtF transition. She is a gorgeous women, but now she feels uncomfortable in the ladies room. Some of this 'advocacy' goes too far and puts strain on the community they say they are trying to help. Every single trans person I have met in the past 22 years of my life just wants to blend and live their lives. Or as my one friend calls it 'passing.' She wants to pass.
    Last edited by IceyCat; October 7, 2019 at 05:42pm.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IceyCat View Post
    I mean this respectfully, I have no clue what you are saying. I do not hate anyone. In my personal experience, and in the experience of MANY of my friends and family, inclusivity rarely means what people say it is. It is a buzz word that is meant to make you feel a certain way, but it rarely ever means what is implied (again in MY personal experience).

    For example, my cousin is mixed race. His Mom is white and his Dad is black. For a while he ran with a crew in college (of ALL white folks mind you) that respected his 'world view and perspective' being a person of color. Well they did, up until this past election. My cousin (who was a staunch Democrat) decided to vote for Donald Trump.

    His college friends abandoned him, but not before telling him that his opinion no longer mattered because he was a slave to his whiteness. His super inclusive group that accepted anyone not only cast him out, but they made sure that other people were aware of his horrible transgression. The way he explains it is that he became a social leper on campus and ended up moving home.

    I can tell you countless other stories just like this one. In theory the idea of being inclusive looks good on paper, but the human element ALWAYS taints even the best ideas. People have become VERY tribal and inclusivity only extends to people who think a certain way or vote a certain way.

    Edited to add: I find it funny that there is this movement to force inclusion. I went to college in a pretty white bread town, but the school was great so it attracted a lot of students from NYC. Our campus was VERY diverse. I never had to be told to 'include' someone. My group of close friends in college was very diverse. I even had a trans friend LONG before it became socially acceptable.

    Sometimes when I view the world these days I am reminded of Gretchen Wieners from Mean Girls. Everyone seems to be trying to force 'fetch' to happen instead of allowing things to progress organically.

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    No worries, Jack! I never get mad or even irritated by a difference of opinion, so if you ever think that just PM me
    Sorry, in my attempt to be brief about the matter didn't come off clear. Similar to what you are saying, when people use the idea of being inclusive against those who they have deemed to not being inclusive.

    Basically where people are hating you because you aren't being inclusive, often building a case in their mind off reasons that had nothing to do with why said individual was or wasn't excluded. You didn't take them on the bus because they are a _____, when they not only last in line, but late to the departure time, and didn't bring what they were asked to bring with them.

    I don't think mattel is doing that in this case, they have chosen a word that is a mix of buzzword, hot bed etc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by wyldman11 View Post
    Sorry, in my attempt to be brief about the matter didn't come off clear. Similar to what you are saying, when people use the idea of being inclusive against those who they have deemed to not being inclusive.

    Basically where people are hating you because you aren't being inclusive, often building a case in their mind off reasons that had nothing to do with why said individual was or wasn't excluded. You didn't take them on the bus because they are a _____, when they not only last in line, but late to the departure time, and didn't bring what they were asked to bring with them.

    I don't think mattel is doing that in this case, they have chosen a word that is a mix of buzzword, hot bed etc.
    Word! I get it, you have to be careful what you say out of the TS about certain topics. I am just glad you did not think I was a hateful person.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KidTDragon View Post
    Even if their beliefs are to oppress and bully a particular group of people that don't want to harm anyone and just want to live their lives?
    I never said anything about opressing or bullying anyone. I just said I think pushing and marketing gender neutrality on kids is wrong.
    I really couldn't care less what an adult wants to do as long as they are happy and aren't doing anyone any harm I don't have a problem with it.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark M View Post
    I never said anything about opressing or bullying anyone. I just said I think pushing and marketing gender neutrality on kids is wrong.
    Why is it wrong? What harm do you think is caused by teaching children to be accepting of those different from them?
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    Quote Originally Posted by IceyCat View Post
    Word! I get it, you have to be careful what you say out of the TS about certain topics. I am just glad you did not think I was a hateful person.
    No problem, I have been on the side of someone thinking I posted something in a way I didn't intend. So I always try to look at most posts in as neutral of a tone etc as I can. And it is one reason I am sure many are refraining from posting full thoughts on this topic. I do think most of the posters here are respectful and most don't really fall into the more extreme views on many topics. Some might have their toe in it, but there is often more to the surface of what they are saying.

    On the topic of the doll if I had designed it, I would have probably done several things differently. One of which would just to avoid the word inclusive. I don't think the dolls need the stated label to show that they are doing that. A friend once told me, 'if you have to state it outloud, it's probably not true.' And I agree with that, or said it if you have to say it, everything else is saying the opposite of what you said.

    Now take that however you want in the grand scheme of this conversation.
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  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by IceyCat View Post
    Word! I get it, you have to be careful what you say out of the TS about certain topics. I am just glad you did not think I was a hateful person.
    People sometimes think comparing me to the son of satan is going too easy on me....at least online, so, don't let it get to you ;o)
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  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by KidTDragon View Post
    Why is it wrong? What harm do you think is caused by teaching children to be accepting of those different from them?
    Teaching children to be accepting of things is fine...but you know as well as I do that not everyone will ever be that accepting.
    But I think bring gender neutrality into schools is quite harmful for children.
    Having worked in education I know what goes on in schools and I know and have seen the types of things bullying does to people. For children's own safety and well being I think encouraging gender neutrality, transgender etc is just going to give bullies a prime target and reason to bully them.
    People should be allowed to go to school without having to deal with being bullied for whatever reason.
    I guess maybe these dolls might learn people to be more accepting in some ways.

    I am not going to say any different though, there is no such thing as gender neutral. That's my belief and opinion but I have no problem with anyone that wants to identify as whatever.

    I suppose my firm stance on this issue has been a bit too rigid. Regardless of my opinion...I suppose all that matters is children have fun playing with their toys and that should be all that matters.

    I actually recall reading a true short story in a book called ''Just Can't Get Enough'' and one of the authors shared a story about wanting a Punky Brewster doll for Christmas, as e loved the TV show, and the annoyance of his Father when reading it on his list to Santa. His Dad said no but his Mother bought it for him and later that day his Dad and some family joked and mocked him for playing with a doll and that was really wrong. They should have been happy he was happy with the toy.

  20. #70
    Heroic Warrior IceyCat's Avatar
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    There is absolutely nothing wrong with teaching children to be accepting of others. There is a metric crap ton wrong with indoctrinating children and confusing them at a young age. There are states that are going to start teaching children in kindergarten about gender fluidity. When my son was that age he wanted to be a robot some days and a dragon others. It is not developmentally or age appropriate to teach these things at that age. They know this, but it is easier to indoctrinate children if you can start early on.
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    bingo icey.

    Just look at all these kids with 'stress' over 'climate change'.

    I can't believe that this is a thing kids have to worry about now.

    It all comes off as cultish for a certain part of the population to indoctrinate the kids of the next generation.

    I wouldn't want my school teaching 'gender fluidity' whatever the hell that is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shredder View Post
    I wouldn't want my school teaching 'gender fluidity' whatever the hell that is.
    I completely agree. Although I do think there should be things done about climate change...but organising huge protests for people to travel to and millionaires traveling in their private jets and yachts isn't the best course of action to prevent climate change.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IceyCat View Post
    There is absolutely nothing wrong with teaching children to be accepting of others. There is a metric crap ton wrong with indoctrinating children and confusing them at a young age. There are states that are going to start teaching children in kindergarten about gender fluidity. When my son was that age he wanted to be a robot some days and a dragon others. It is not developmentally or age appropriate to teach these things at that age. They know this, but it is easier to indoctrinate children if you can start early on.
    I completely agree with you.

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shredder View Post
    bingo icey.

    Just look at all these kids with 'stress' over 'climate change'.

    I can't believe that this is a thing kids have to worry about now.

    It all comes off as cultish for a certain part of the population to indoctrinate the kids of the next generation.

    I wouldn't want my school teaching 'gender fluidity' whatever the hell that is.
    Oh do not even get me started on those kids - LOL!

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    I think unless you have kids or have been around them a significant length of time (long enough to understand their development) then it might not seem like a big deal to you. I can tell you that five years old are not equip to deal with conversations about gender and sex, nor should they be forced to.
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  24. #74
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    After 30 posts...

    Quote Originally Posted by Heeeere's Olesker! View Post
    Thanks, BCI Guy. I may be older but I'm not yet dead. I'm always looking to learn and I've learned much from orgers through the years. One is never too old for growth, I think. In that regard I'm grateful to Adam in this thread, although I certainly respect everyone else's opinions and their right to them.

    What I am particularly grateful for is that Adam presented his opposing view in not only a well thought out manner, but also a respectful and civil one, not slamming me for my beliefs in the process. Imo, it's so much easier for a person to consider viewpoints different from one's own when they are presented in that manner. It reduces the potential for escalation and allows people to subjectively consider those different points of view. I think there are a lot of people who could learn from Adam in this thread.

    It's ironic that I've been striving for that -- sometimes failing myself -- for years in The Tar Swamp and yet it ends up taking place here in the Other thread. Kudos and props to dorrmann for letting us run with this for a bit.
    After 70 posts...

    aaaaand this is why we can't have nice things....

  25. #75
    Heroic Warrior IceyCat's Avatar
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    I would argue popping in a thread to derail it with a snarky comment is more along the lines of why we cannot have nice things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shredder View Post
    People sometimes think comparing me to the son of satan is going too easy on me....at least online, so, don't let it get to you ;o)
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