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Thread: The newly announced cartoon has a new He-Man symbol - What are your thoughts?

  1. #76
    Heroic Warrior IceyCat's Avatar
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    The problem I have always had with He-Man and Superman is that NO ONE recognizes them. DUDE, they look like the same person. I think when they did the whole teenager into He-Man thing in 200X it at least made sense that people would not recognize him
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  2. #77
    Color'licious! JVS3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IceyCat View Post
    I am one of those folks who try to find the humor in everything. Life is too short to be angry and hostile all the time. Maybe that does not translate well on message boards, but I do not think I am always hostile or dismissive. Sometimes I am though. Sometimes I am sarcastic. Sometimes I am just goofy. Sometimes I make heart felt posts. I do not think you can characterize my entire posting style as dismissive.
    I have no doubt, in person, you are absolutely lovely. I imagine if we were sitting across from each other, the tone of this discussion would be fine because we get all those natural inflections that are lost online, plus we have the ability to quickly adjust our meaning when we sense something we said came out skewed.

    But, that's the downside of text. We lose all of that. So, we have to try (well.. hopefully people will try) to measure things more carefully. Heck, in twenty years, I've lost count of how many times I've stuck my foot in my mouth!

    But I've done my best to learn from those mistakes and adjust. And here I am, twenty years later, still learning and trying to do better.

    Again, my point was about being respectful, and not dismissing others, and not being sarcastic. This whole matter is a real concern. We should treat it as such.
    Even if one doesn't agree, we shouldn't ignore the reasons for the concern, and we should instead present counter arguments about the positives. To say it again, and sorry for beating that horse, numerous fans have posted their feelings here without going down the road of sarcasm and/or dismissive remarks.

    This is everyone's chance to explain how the iron cross is not a symbol of hate.
    But when talking about those who do have a concern about it, it's bad to call them over-sensitive, or easily offended, or thin-skinned, or for anyone to ignore the history of what makes the symbol bad in the eyes of many across the globe. This is an opportunity to post useful feedback, where Mattel and others are reading, that gives meaningful insights that counter the elements of hatred that poisoned the iron cross in the first place.
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  3. #78
    Heroic Warrior IceyCat's Avatar
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    Awww! I do not think anyone means you, Val. I think people are just pointing out that we have gotten overtly sensitive as a culture. I can understand your POV on this (the historical significance of the iron cross). I fear that if we abandon everything (for example the OK symbol) because a bunch of tools have co-opted it then where does it end? In situations like this I always think of Clerks 2, have you ever seen it? CLEARLY Randal is wrong when he tries to take back a specific phrase (I will not mention it here, but you can look it up if you are unfamiliar). EVERYONE knows that the phrase he is using is racist. It has a universal meaning of racism. It is harder with things that may have been appropriated by a hateful group, but do not have a universal understanding/meaning of hatred. If his symbol was a swastika then there would be outrage on BOTH sides because people are more familiar with that being a hate symbol. Like I said, I have NO problems with changing the symbol at all. I just dislike where we are going as a society in general with cancel culture.

    Edit: I found this interesting. https://www.adl.org/education/refere...ols/iron-cross

    Edited to add: I want to APOLOGIZE to you, Val. I re-read some of my comments in the thread and I could see why you would think that (above). That was not my intent. Perhaps this was NOT the thread to discuss this topic on because you actually have a point. I was trying to speak on cancel culture in general, but this very specific example does have historical significance. I sincerely apologize.
    Last edited by IceyCat; December 20, 2019 at 12:43pm.
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  4. #79
    Unmotivated webcomicker KidTDragon's Avatar
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    I dig the new symbol. And He-Man's used a variety of different symbols over the years so it's not like changing it is something new. Besides, it doesn't make a lot of sense for the cross symbol to exist on a world where Christianity doesn't.
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  5. #80
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    I honestly forgot about the whole Iron-cross-being-nazi-related thing (Thinking back, I only ever really heard it mentioned once back in 2011 in regards to two folks on an unrelated fan forum discussing the fact it was on a dagger in the background of a movie). When I first saw this thread, my immediate thought was "they might as well, they changed it a bunch of other times too."

    And hey, if they want to take those steps to avoid a potential pr problem, then they have every right to do so.

    The only negative I can think of it might be harder for kids to draw. But that's only because I already need a reference to draw the other symbols.

  6. #81
    Heroic Warrior Krueger's Avatar
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    In all honesty, I don't care. He-Man's symbol has never been of great importance to me. So yeah.

  7. #82
    Heroic Warrior IceyCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KidTDragon View Post
    I dig the new symbol. And He-Man's used a variety of different symbols over the years so it's not like changing it is something new. Besides, it doesn't make a lot of sense for the cross symbol to exist on a world where Christianity doesn't.
    It is interesting that people associate it with Christianity. I am a Christian (albeit probably not the best one), but I never looked at the symbol as one of faith. I just thought it was a cool symbol. When you think back to myths and legends the warriors always had a symbol or emblem of their people. I never really looked beyond that to find any other meaning. Kids, sheesh!

    Well look at that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross_patt%C3%A9e You learn something new every day!
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  8. #83
    Heroic Warrior Ivan's Avatar
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    I never really thought of the Iron Cross symbol as that important to HM iconography. I didn't get into MOTU till I was like 13, so I may have a different perspective, but I honestly always thought of that symbol as unoriginal (to put it bluntly). Other symbols (like Superman's "S", Batman's bat symbol, etc) were so unique and recognizable. This cross wasn't. If you showed it to someone without context, they would never say - oh, yeah, that's the He-Man symbol. To me it was always just a random design on He-Man's outfit. Actually, the battle armor symbol was a lot more iconic to me.

    I think the change makes sense for two reasons:
    1. I want MOTU to succeed and a public debate on the Iron Cross would just be an unnecessary distraction
    2. It's an opportunity to create an original symbol that would be associated with HM/Heroic Warriors on its own

  9. #84
    Heroic Warrior Razzerian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RockinHard View Post
    I wonder what would happen if Blade or Black Panther were made white?
    For both those characters their heritage is part of their background, so changing it is fundamentally changing the character.

    Making Clamp Champ white on the other han, would make essentially no difference.

    But quite feankly, why has this topic suddenly changed in to a skin color thing? Or are the ***s steering the conversation that way?

  10. #85
    Pillar of the Community hadley's Avatar
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    I expected a lot more from this fandom than what this thread has revealed. WOW.

  11. #86
    Broncos lovin' admin! dorrmann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Razzerian View Post
    But quite feankly, why has this topic suddenly changed in to a skin color thing? Or are the ***s steering the conversation that way?
    You have quite a point. Let's bring this thread back on topic. It's strayed WAY too far.

  12. #87
    Heroic Warrior Razzerian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KidTDragon View Post
    I dig the new symbol. And He-Man's used a variety of different symbols over the years so it's not like changing it is something new. Besides, it doesn't make a lot of sense for the cross symbol to exist on a world where Christianity doesn't.
    Agreed. I like the look of the cross but it makes little sense, there’s no reason for it to be his symbol, at least none that w s ever explored.

  13. #88
    Color'licious! JVS3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by man-at-work View Post
    When I open a new page from this site, the browser tab shows a little liron cross logo on the left of the name of the page. Also, when someone is labeled as Bronze/Silver/Gold warrior, those badges show the iron cross logo, just to name a couple of examples where that logo is used. So, here's my question: given the reactions and arguments presented in this thread about the negativity of the vintage symbol, is this site going through a design change in the near future to remove that logo?
    We changed it a long time ago, but there's some old code in there that keeps gunking up and grabbing on old icon file.
    The pains of a very old site that's expensive to upgrade. But it's on the to-do list.

    We managed to load the BA HM symbol for Tapatalk. I understand changing it for the future so he has his own unique symbol. But still, the site will always show vintage He-Man images. It is his past, and I think it would be irresponsible to not show vintage He-Man as he appeared. After all, like I said in the original post, we didn't grow up viewing He-Man as anything other than a hero.
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  14. #89
    Widget Crowley's Avatar
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    Just to throw another thought in here for a second. If He-Man himself was around in 2019... would a character that's heroic, inclusive and kind want to be associated with murdering fascists?

    My guess would be no.

  15. #90
    The Man Shecky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IceyCat View Post
    The problem I have always had with He-Man and Superman is that NO ONE recognizes them. DUDE, they look like the same person. I think when they did the whole teenager into He-Man thing in 200X it at least made sense that people would not recognize him
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  16. #91
    Heroic Warrior Durendal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JVS3 View Post
    This comment is a false equivalency that only serves to unnecessarily rile people up.
    For everyone involved, even if you have a differing point of view, let's all try (at least try) to focus more on contributing constructive conversation to threads like this.

    We have a rich fandom full of diversity. We have fans of many different races, ethnic backgrounds, gender expressions, sexual orientations, ages, physical or mental abilities, body sizes, national origins, and religions. We shouldn't make any fans feel marginalized.

    Even though we looked at He-Man's cross symbol early on with the innocence of children, we can no longer afford to fall back on that as adults once we became pupils of history.
    We're talking about what many see as an iron cross symbol that, despite its many other uses prior to WWII, still represents to many people across the world a regime that was responsible for the murder of approximately 6 million Jewish people and approximately 5 million non-Jewish people. It doesn't matter what the symbol's use was inside of the Nazi military because the symbol is still representative of the regime itself and has also been used on racist iconography for decades following WWII. I don't know if there's a way to strip the symbol of that meaning and re-power it to mean something positive. But until that time, which may not be possible, this is not a topic to take lightly. It really upsets me to see some of you dismissing this matter with remarks along the lines of "people are offended by everything these days." That type of attitude should not represent our fan base.

    Topics like this go far beyond the individual. As a fan base, we should at least attempt to look at the world as a whole and all those that live in it. Just because the individual may not relate to a topic doesn't mean that there isn't an issue at play that negatively impacts others. It's way too easy to say things like "people are too thin-skinned" or "being PC is out of control." If the shoe was on the other foot, I suspect most of you would have a different attitude about social issues.

    Yes, I realize there can be extremes, and I realize there's a learning curve when it comes to adjusting to a new way of saying or doing things if you've done it differently for a lifetime. But just because you aren't impacted directly by something doesn't mean there isn't a collective concern. Even if you don't agree about something, I implore you all to at least try and understand how others can be negatively impacted by certain language, or iconography, or depictions in media and entertainment before you dismiss the concerns of others.
    Couple of quick points:

    1) it’s relevant to note that in Germany, a very politically sensitive country (display of any Nazi symbols or gestures is illegal and comes with jail sentences), the iron cross is still prominently used by their military.

    2) Wasn’t Lou Scheimer Jewish? I don’t recall him ever objecting to the use of the iron cross either, and Filmation definitely had some influence over how MOTU was portrayed in the classic show they produced.

  17. #92
    Color'licious! JVS3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Durendal View Post
    1) it’s relevant to note that in Germany, a very politically sensitive country (display of any Nazi symbols or gestures is illegal and comes with jail sentences), the iron cross is still prominently used by their military.
    Not until 2009, and it was a very divisive matter when the proposal happened to re-introduce it. But I'm sure those in favor of re-introducing it was people in Germany also wanting to take the negative power away from the symbol.

    2) Wasn’t Lou Scheimer Jewish? I don’t recall him ever objecting to the use of the iron cross either, and Filmation definitely had some influence over how MOTU was portrayed in the classic show they produced.
    I don't know how Mr. Scheimer felt about it. He was Jewish, like you said. We could always ask Erika.
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  18. #93
    Heroic Warrior Durendal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JVS3 View Post
    Not until 2009, and it was a very divisive matter when the proposal happened to re-introduce it. But I'm sure those in favor of re-introducing it was people in Germany also wanting to take the negative power away from the symbol.



    I don't know how Mr. Scheimer felt about it. He was Jewish, like you said. We could always ask Erika.
    I would actually be very curious what her take on the matter is, and whether her dad ever voiced an opinion on it.

  19. #94
    Heroic Warrior motogp_fanatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan View Post
    I never really thought of the Iron Cross symbol as that important to HM iconography. I didn't get into MOTU till I was like 13, so I may have a different perspective, but I honestly always thought of that symbol as unoriginal (to put it bluntly). Other symbols (like Superman's "S", Batman's bat symbol, etc) were so unique and recognizable. This cross wasn't. If you showed it to someone without context, they would never say - oh, yeah, that's the He-Man symbol. To me it was always just a random design on He-Man's outfit. Actually, the battle armor symbol was a lot more iconic to me.

    I think the change makes sense for two reasons:
    1. I want MOTU to succeed and a public debate on the Iron Cross would just be an unnecessary distraction
    2. It's an opportunity to create an original symbol that would be associated with HM/Heroic Warriors on its own
    This sums it up for me.
    He-Man iconic.
    Cross symbol not really.
    It does not represents He-Man like the S or hope symbol of Superman.
    The cross can be changed imho, just change it elegantly not dramatically.

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    Last edited by motogp_fanatic; December 23, 2019 at 01:53am.
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  20. #95
    President of Primus Ornclown's Avatar
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    I always thought the symbol on Battle-Armor He-Man's chest looked cool...

    I even like the symbol on his harness in the '87 movie.
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  21. #96
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    Just now seeing this news.

    What do I think? Bad.

    Logo:Bad

    the sword:Bad. That's not a sword. It looks like a cross between an olive fork and a bident.

    In my opinion.

    I'm a little shaky on the animation.

  22. #97
    Heroic Warrior InThe80s's Avatar
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    He-Man's symbol predates Christianity ONLY by about 3000 years. People need to stop being offended by things. Maybe these cartoons aren't for me. I will just stick to watching Filmation, thanks.


  23. #98
    Heroic Warrior motogp_fanatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InThe80s View Post
    He-Man's symbol predates Christianity ONLY by about 3000 years. People need to stop being offended by things. Maybe these cartoons aren't for me. I will just stick to watching Filmation, thanks.

    https://i.imgur.com/T7pHJTl.jpg
    This is a very informative post.. Thanks for posting this, nice point on people nowbeing offended easily but judgemental at the same time...

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  24. #99
    Heroic Warrior horseman1981's Avatar
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    “ a rose by any other name, is still a rose.”

    He-man is not his chest symbol. He-man is not the shape of his sword, the length of a cape his hair style or his skin color. He-man is the embodiment of strength through hope, That selflessly doing what is right and still treating your enemy as a living being, that a silver spoon prince or a man of the jungle or even a woman can be a he-man or a she-ra. That is he-man for me.
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  25. #100
    Evil Customizer smanomega's Avatar
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    Where have YOU seen any animation? By definition animation is moving pictures . We have 2 different pictures. A far cry of 24 pictures per second. For all we know the sword is just lit up with the power of grayskull in the new transformation sequence.

    I for one am sketchy on the new skeleton face up animated my opinion my change.
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