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Thread: How to kill off an iconic character

  1. #26
    Heroic Warrior Thrawn29's Avatar
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    The first thing is 99% of the time...don't.

    Most modern writers on these franchises are not the original creators. They have no attachment, investment, or respect for the characters.

    Deaths are meaningless when they're used as a crutch for lack of talent and are poorly thought out. Most modern writers don't know how to craft emotional stakes or payoffs, so they default to "kill character for shock value".

    LOTR is one of the most emotional, well written pieces of fiction ever put to to page; it's been around for 70+ years.

    Only Boromir dies.

    Teela's Quest from Filmation is an emotional episode because of the voice acting and the pathos.

    ROTJ is the end of the one of the greatest trilogies in existence. The moment when Luke saves Vader brings applause and chills ever time from an audience. None of the main heroes die in the original Star Wars trilogy (Vader was a villain and a supporting character at the time).

    Take Jurassic Park 3. They killed off the T-Rex - the icon of the franchise and the most popular dinosaur of all time. They used its death to boost up the spinosaurus and the complete opposite occurred, and that moment still makes fans angry and is considered one of the lowest moments of the franchise.

    ------------

    Before you can even ask that question "How to kill off an iconic character" I'd say learn to write first.

    Then I'd say only kill off iconic characters you created.

  2. #27
    Heroic Warrior Reviews2D's Avatar
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    I don't get why one should only kill iconic they created, Barry Allen's death in Crisis on Infinite Earths and Mar-Vell's death in The Death of Captain Marvel went over well with people despite not being written by the original creators.
    Princesses of Power enthusiast

  3. #28
    Heroic Dad, Teacher, Nerd Uki's Avatar
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    Mod Note: Let's keep the Revelation discussion out of this thread. This is the wrong section of the Forums for that.

    As to killing off characters, I'm not generally a fan of killing main, iconic characters unless it truly helps the story. One of my favorite iterations of this idea was when Bebop and Rocksteady killed Donnie in IDW's TMNT comic books. Donnie was "dead" per se, and his mind was basically uploaded into Metalhead for awhile. The most interesting aspect of it was how Donatello had to come to grips with the idea of spirituality, which he struggled with from a scientific perspective. (In this version, for those who don't know, the turtles and Splinter were reincarnated from previous lives in ancient Japan.)

    Superman's death was handled well in the comics, though I only remember the broad strokes of that, mostly from the novelization.

    *Also, Thrawn, in JP3, it's not the same T Rex that was killed by the Spino. Remember, they were at Site B/Isla Sorna. Rexy lives on Isla Nublar (and now roaming America, I guess...!).
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  4. #29
    Heroic Warrior Thrawn29's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uki View Post
    Mod Note: Let's keep the Revelation discussion out of this thread. This is the wrong section of the Forums for that.

    As to killing off characters, I'm not generally a fan of killing main, iconic characters unless it truly helps the story. One of my favorite iterations of this idea was when Bebop and Rocksteady killed Donnie in IDW's TMNT comic books. Donnie was "dead" per se, and his mind was basically uploaded into Metalhead for awhile. The most interesting aspect of it was how Donatello had to come to grips with the idea of spirituality, which he struggled with from a scientific perspective. (In this version, for those who don't know, the turtles and Splinter were reincarnated from previous lives in ancient Japan.)
    Killing Donatello doesn't fit with the topic of the thread since his death was obviously used as a story telling device and was never intended to be permanent.

    *Also, Thrawn, in JP3, it's not the same T Rex that was killed by the Spino. Remember, they were at Site B/Isla Sorna. Rexy lives on Isla Nublar (and now roaming America, I guess...!).
    I'm well aware of that. It's irrelevant to my point. The T-rex is the logo for Jurassic Park franchise and to the general public the individual animals were indistinguishable. It's a perfect example for this thread.

    I was actually surprised it took until Jurassic World for Universal to wake up to the fact that they could personalize the dinosaurs and create "actual" characters - such as Rexy and Blue.

  5. #30
    Heroic Dad, Teacher, Nerd Uki's Avatar
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    Well, first, it's pretty obvious (and been confirmed) that Adam isn't staying dead in MOTUR, which is what the thread is predicated on, and I specifically mentioned that Donnie's death was for the story (as is Adam's, but we're staying off Revelation) so...

    And the point remains with JP. It doesn't matter that the general public can't pay attention enough.
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  6. #31
    Heroic Warrior McHorde-Trooper's Avatar
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    I know a lot people though killing Optimums Prime in the first animated movie was a bad idea, but I’d say whatever your opinion that was a heroic and emotional send off.

    That’s my final answer

    ——
    I’m very confused by that show thinking Teela had to be tougher than she was in Filmation’s version. Captain of the Gaurd and personal trainer to the next king even though she’s so young . . . That’s pretty tough and smart. It’s almost like modern media thinks tough women have to look like and act like a man to be tough. Pretty messed up message from any young girls watching.
    Last edited by McHorde-Trooper; August 15, 2021 at 10:11am.

  7. #32
    Life is good Dice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McHorde-Trooper View Post
    Iím very confused by that show thinking Teela had to be tougher than she was in Filmationís version. Captain of the Gaurd and personal trainer to the next king even though sheís so young . . . Thatís pretty tough and smart. Itís almost like modern media thinks tough women have to look like and act like a man to be tough. Pretty messed up message from any young girls watching.
    Hopefully young girls will learn that if they choose to have short hair and muscles, they will look like a man. Acting tough is also man territory that little ladies need to steer clear of. What's next? Women doing man jobs and asking for man pay?
    "To a great mind, nothing is little."

  8. #33
    Papi Loco Hamato Yoshi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dice View Post
    Acting tough is also man territory that little ladies need to steer clear of.
    To your point:


  9. #34
    Life is good Dice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hamato Yoshi View Post
    Come on now!!

    Tell me no MALE soldiers have ever said the exact same thing! Crap I know guys who will tell you the same thing!
    "To a great mind, nothing is little."

  10. #35
    Papi Loco Hamato Yoshi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dice View Post
    Come on now!!

    Tell me no MALE soldiers have ever said the exact same thing! Crap I know guys who will tell you the same thing!
    Link me to the article(s), of which I'm sure there are many.

    And then maybe post some examples of armies consisting of mostly female warriors throughout history. I'll wait.

  11. #36
    Life is good Dice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hamato Yoshi View Post
    Link me to the article(s), of which I'm sure there are many.

    And then maybe post some examples of armies consisting of mostly female warriors throughout history. I'll wait.
    https://zeenews.india.com/news/world...y_1480596.html

    https://www.overcomingthefearofdeath.org/the-military

    https://www.enotes.com/homework-help...-afraid-193347

    O'Brien writes of the soldiers, "they were afraid of dying but they were even more afraid to show it."


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...eteran_suicide
    If you know any soldiers personally ask them if they were ever scared. Especially any that actually saw combat.

    The idea that only a female soldier would be scared in combat is ridiculous.
    "To a great mind, nothing is little."

  12. #37
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    If anyone thinks some kid like me who was lowered out of a helicopter on a hoist as a USAF search-and-rescue medic with little more than a flight helmet and combat boots to protect him when he was twenty-two wasn't afraid, then they've never been lowered out of a helicopter on a hoist with little more than a flight helmet and combat boots to protect them. Hell, of course, you're scared. But it's what you do -- or did -- to help defend liberty and freedom, and that's a great honor that helps to overcome the fear.


    "Death must not be feared. Death, in time, comes to all men. Yes, every man is scared in his first battle. If he says he's not, he's a liar. Some men are cowards but they fight the same as the brave men or they get the hell slammed out of them watching men fight who are just as scared as they are. The real hero is the man who fights even though he is scared. Some men get over their fright in a minute under fire. For some, it takes an hour. For some, it takes days. But a real man will never let his fear of death overpower his honor, his sense of duty to his country, and his innate manhood."

    General George S. Patton



    I'm confident that Patton's the statement on fear can be updated to include our brave servicewomen of today as well.




    Quote Originally Posted by Dice View Post
    https://zeenews.india.com/news/world...y_1480596.html

    https://www.overcomingthefearofdeath.org/the-military

    https://www.enotes.com/homework-help...-afraid-193347

    O'Brien writes of the soldiers, "they were afraid of dying but they were even more afraid to show it."


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...eteran_suicide
    If you know any soldiers personally ask them if they were ever scared. Especially any that actually saw combat.

    The idea that only a female soldier would be scared in combat is ridiculous.
    Last edited by Heeeere's Olesker!; August 17, 2021 at 02:33pm.

  13. #38
    Outlaw Preacher Dave-Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heeeere's Olesker! View Post
    If anyone thinks some kid like me who was lowered out of a helicopter on a hoist as a USAF search-and-rescue medic with little more than a flight helmet and combat boots to protect him when he was twenty-two wasn't afraid, then they've never been lowered out of a helicopter on a hoist with little more than a flight helmet and combat boots to protect them. Hell, of course, you're scared. But it's what you do -- or did -- to help defend liberty and freedom, and that's a great honor that helps to overcome the fear.


    "Death must not be feared. Death, in time, comes to all men. Yes, every man is scared in his first battle. If he says he's not, he's a liar. Some men are cowards but they fight the same as the brave men or they get the hell slammed out of them watching men fight who are just as scared as they are. The real hero is the man who fights even though he is scared. Some men get over their fright in a minute under fire. For some, it takes an hour. For some, it takes days. But a real man will never let his fear of death overpower his honor, his sense of duty to his country, and his innate manhood."

    General George S. Patton



    I'm confident that Patton's the statement on fear can be updated to include our brave servicewomen of today as well.
    The best ones always say "Hell yes I was scared, but I did my duty." I'm not entirely sure who wouldn't be scared in a situation like that. I was never a soldier, but I can tell you that I would be terrified. I have no doubt the training helps a lot, at least with the being able to do what you have to while you are scared green part, but anybody would be scared.
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  14. #39
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    No question but that exhaustive training after basic -- both medical and survival school -- helps, and I had plenty of medical and survival training at Sheppard Air Force Base in Wichita Falls and Brooks Air Force Base in San Antonio. I also think knowing that I was trained to rescue, extract and treat injured pilots and flight crew members strengthened me and my resolve. I do know it was the same for the majority of my fellow search-and-rescue Aerospace Medics.

    As an adjunct, Patton was right that you're certainly scared the first time out. But he also right that that fear recedes the more you do (did) your job, do your duty and see the fruits of your labors.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave-Man View Post
    The best ones always say "Hell yes I was scared, but I did my duty." I'm not entirely sure who wouldn't be scared in a situation like that. I was never a soldier, but I can tell you that I would be terrified. I have no doubt the training helps a lot, at least with the being able to do what you have to while you are scared green part, but anybody would be scared.

  15. #40
    Heroic Warrior Mark M's Avatar
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    If you want to kill off an iconic character just hire JJ Abrams, Rian Johnson or Kevin Smith.

  16. #41
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    YOUCH!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark M View Post
    If you want to kill off an iconic character just hire JJ Abrams, Rian Johnson or Kevin Smith.

  17. #42
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    There is a saying. There are things worse than death. Living fear is one of them.

    Fear is ok to have. Can keep you alive.

    But you have to control it. Not let it control you.


    Quote Originally Posted by Heeeere's Olesker! View Post
    If anyone thinks some kid like me who was lowered out of a helicopter on a hoist as a USAF search-and-rescue medic with little more than a flight helmet and combat boots to protect him when he was twenty-two wasn't afraid, then they've never been lowered out of a helicopter on a hoist with little more than a flight helmet and combat boots to protect them. Hell, of course, you're scared. But it's what you do -- or did -- to help defend liberty and freedom, and that's a great honor that helps to overcome the fear.


    "Death must not be feared. Death, in time, comes to all men. Yes, every man is scared in his first battle. If he says he's not, he's a liar. Some men are cowards but they fight the same as the brave men or they get the hell slammed out of them watching men fight who are just as scared as they are. The real hero is the man who fights even though he is scared. Some men get over their fright in a minute under fire. For some, it takes an hour. For some, it takes days. But a real man will never let his fear of death overpower his honor, his sense of duty to his country, and his innate manhood."

    General George S. Patton



    I'm confident that Patton's the statement on fear can be updated to include our brave servicewomen of today as well.
    - - - Updated - - -

    I would replace "character" with "franchise". But a fairly accurate statement. opinion. In my opinion. Back on track........

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark M View Post
    If you want to kill off an iconic character just hire JJ Abrams, Rian Johnson or Kevin Smith.

  18. #43
    Heroic Warrior McHorde-Trooper's Avatar
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    Thrawn29 I'm sorry for derailing your topic.
    It's a great thread idea. I'm glad I didn't get it locked.

    Dice I consider myself to be a bit of a feminist.
    I think if you understood what I typed you would NOT be upset and you might even agree with what I meant.
    But unless I go to the Tar Swamp or PM I'm not discussing it.

    ---------
    On topic
    ---------
    How to kill off an iconic character?

    Thinking about it I have to agree with the person who said just don't.

    Even if it's epic and tugs at the heart strings the next reboot or some other reason just brings that character back.
    That just cheapens all of it, unless it's done just the right way.

  19. #44
    Life is good Dice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McHorde-Trooper View Post
    Dice I consider myself to be a bit of a feminist.
    I think if you understood what I typed you would NOT be upset and you might even agree with what I meant.
    But unless I go to the Tar Swamp or PM I'm not discussing it.
    Overall I understood what you were trying to say. That you don't like the idea that a "normal" (softer feminine features) looking female character couldn't be presented as "tough". And instead it's as though young girls need to be "less feminine" to be tough.

    But I'm pretty staunch in my opinion that a woman can be muscular and tough and NOT look like a man. It's the use of "look like a man" that gets me.

    The worst part is they could have drawn Teela in this series exactly the way she looks (same hair, muscularity) but in a skimpier, more feminine outfit and it would have been fine.

    Has anyone seen Revelations Teela in a string bikini? If they did would she look like a man?
    "To a great mind, nothing is little."

  20. #45
    Master of New Adventures!
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    Oh what I would give to be able to go back in time and kill off the four scientists in the first episode of NA!

  21. #46
    Heroic Warrior Durendal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heeeere's Olesker! View Post
    Oh what I would give to be able to go back in time and kill off the four scientists in the first episode of NA!
    I'd love to see a cackling Crita standing over their bloody corpses.

    Make it happen Jack!


  22. #47
    Heroic Warrior Mark M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heeeere's Olesker! View Post
    Oh what I would give to be able to go back in time and kill off the four scientists in the first episode of NA!
    Someone on Twitter would probably be more angry that they were not diverse enough.

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