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Thread: Vaccinations for all

  1. #76
    Master of Hosting Events! JohnnyC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by King Kahn View Post
    I have never seen someone use so much "data and facts" and yet come to such incorrect conclusions.
    This right here.

    -Johnny C

  2. #77
    Heroic Warrior UsernameMDM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC View Post
    Whoa, bud.... You really didn't comprehend much of what I said. I don't see what the point of replying to you here if you're going to keep bending my words. Let me just give one example: When I stated that the Covid vaccine was going to be a yearly shot just like the flu shot, you said I was comparing the flu with Covid, which was vastly false. I then explained it to you again and you said something about comparing the flu to Covid. What part is not coming through clearly? I'm taking about a vaccine. Not a virus. Man.
    No, I understood you clearly, and explained that in my second post. I just thought it was funny that it had come to that.

    So that's where I bow out with ya. Your way of thinking seems quite dangerous.
    Taking care of yourself is dangerous. Taking data and analytics into account is dangerous. Weighing the pros/cons for individual situations is dangerous. Being informed and not making decisions out of fear or intimidation is dangerous.

    1984, is that you?

    Tell all the hospital workers working with full beds your philosophy.
    You mean the workers that refuse to get the shot and got fired, and the system that is hysterically complaining about staff shortages?

    To quote another forum member: "stupidity should be marginalized."

    Ciao!

    -Johnny C
    Yes, it should be, and that is why I am speaking up. To act like there is no other option than to shut up and line up is the very definition of stupid.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikey View Post
    It's a testament to my desire to do the right thing in getting the vaccines as I generally HATE needles and would ordinarily avoid them at all costs!
    And I am sure your government is sharing their testament on doing the right thing...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by King Kahn View Post
    I have never seen someone use so much "data and facts" and yet come to such incorrect conclusions.
    I've never seen a message board so full of people willing to ignore data and facts to clutch their pearls and safety blankets.

    - - - Updated - - -

    More reading:

    Forcing People Into CVD Vaccines Ignores Important Scientific Information
    https://thefederalist.com/2021/12/14...ic-information

    The attacks on free speech and science are unrelenting. Academic publisher Elsevier’s suppression of an article documenting the myocarditis risk of the COVID-19 vaccines, with no excuse or pretext offered, is incredible enough. Viewed alongside Twitter’s censorship of the American Heart Association, YouTube’s suppression of a panel discussion of vaccine mandates on Capitol Hill, and the Orwellian call by National Institutes of Health Director Francis Collins for critics of the government’s COVID-19 policies to be “brought to justice,” the trend is positively chilling.
    Increases in COVID-19 are unrelated to levels of vaccination across 68 countries and 2947 counties in the United States
    https://link.springer.com/article/10...54-021-00808-7

    At the country-level, there appears to be no discernable relationship between percentage of population fully vaccinated and new COVID-19 cases in the last 7 days (Fig. 1). In fact, the trend line suggests a marginally positive association such that countries with higher percentage of population fully vaccinated have higher COVID-19 cases per 1 million people. Notably, Israel with over 60% of their population fully vaccinated had the highest COVID-19 cases per 1 million people in the last 7 days. The lack of a meaningful association between percentage population fully vaccinated and new COVID-19 cases is further exemplified, for instance, by comparison of Iceland and Portugal. Both countries have over 75% of their population fully vaccinated and have more COVID-19 cases per 1 million people than countries such as Vietnam and South Africa that have around 10% of their population fully vaccinated.
    Of the top 5 counties that have the highest percentage of population fully vaccinated (99.9–84.3%), the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) identifies 4 of them as “High” Transmission counties. Chattahoochee (Georgia), McKinley (New Mexico), and Arecibo (Puerto Rico) counties have above 90% of their population fully vaccinated with all three being classified as “High” transmission. Conversely, of the 57 counties that have been classified as “low” transmission counties by the CDC, 26.3% (15) have percentage of population fully vaccinated below 20%.
    And just for laughs, "Because it's for your own good."

    Vaccine Related
    Are adverse reactions to the COVID-19 vaccine recordable on the OSHA recordkeeping log?

    https://www.osha.gov/coronavirus/faqs#reporting

    DOL and OSHA, as well as other federal agencies, are working diligently to encourage COVID-19 vaccinations. OSHA does not wish to have any appearance of discouraging workers from receiving COVID-19 vaccination, and also does not wish to disincentivize employers' vaccination efforts. As a result, OSHA will not enforce 29 CFR 1904's recording requirements to require any employers to record worker side effects from COVID-19 vaccination at least through May 2022. We will reevaluate the agency’s position at that time to determine the best course of action moving forward.
    Last edited by UsernameMDM; December 14, 2021 at 09:39am.

  3. #78
    Catwoman...Hear Me Roar! Mikey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UsernameMDM View Post
    No, I understood you clearly, and explained that in my second post. I just thought it was funny that it had come to that.



    Taking care of yourself is dangerous. Taking data and analytics into account is dangerous. Weighing the pros/cons for individual situations is dangerous. Being informed and not making decisions out of fear or intimidation is dangerous.

    1984, is that you?



    You mean the workers that refuse to get the shot and got fired, and the system that is hysterically complaining about staff shortages?



    Yes, it should be, and that is why I am speaking up. To act like there is no other option than to shut up and line up is the very definition of stupid.

    - - - Updated - - -



    And I am sure your government is sharing their testament on doing the right thing...

    - - - Updated - - -



    I've never seen a message board so full of people willing to ignore data and facts to clutch their pearls and safety blankets.

    - - - Updated - - -

    More reading:

    Forcing People Into CVD Vaccines Ignores Important Scientific Information
    https://thefederalist.com/2021/12/14...ic-information



    Increases in COVID-19 are unrelated to levels of vaccination across 68 countries and 2947 counties in the United States
    https://link.springer.com/article/10...54-021-00808-7





    And just for laughs, "Because it's for your own good."

    Vaccine Related
    Are adverse reactions to the COVID-19 vaccine recordable on the OSHA recordkeeping log?

    https://www.osha.gov/coronavirus/faqs#reporting
    Consideration for others is always the right thing.
    "Tell me I am beautiful - it means nothing to me. Tell me I am intellectual - well, I know it already. Tell me I am funny however, and that is the greatest compliment in the world that anyone can give me".

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  4. #79
    Heroic Warrior UsernameMDM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikey View Post
    Consideration for others is always the right thing.
    I'm sure the government loves this attitude.

    Meanwhile...

    Sanna Marin: Finland's PM sorry for clubbing after Covid contact
    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-59577371

    Austin mayor was vacationing in Cabo when he said residents ‘need to stay home'
    https://www.statesman.com/story/news...ime/115087704/

    Newsom apologizes for French Laundry dinner, says he will practice what he preaches on COVID-19
    https://www.latimes.com/california/s...inner-covid-19

    Chicago teacher’s union leader who vacationed while claiming it’s unsafe to return to school apologizes
    https://www.mystateline.com/news/sta...ol-apologizes/

    And more and more and more I could post.

    "Rules for thee, not for me"

  5. #80
    Catwoman...Hear Me Roar! Mikey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UsernameMDM View Post
    I'm sure the government loves this attitude.

    Meanwhile...

    Sanna Marin: Finland's PM sorry for clubbing after Covid contact
    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-59577371

    Austin mayor was vacationing in Cabo when he said residents ‘need to stay home'
    https://www.statesman.com/story/news...ime/115087704/

    Newsom apologizes for French Laundry dinner, says he will practice what he preaches on COVID-19
    https://www.latimes.com/california/s...inner-covid-19

    Chicago teacher’s union leader who vacationed while claiming it’s unsafe to return to school apologizes
    https://www.mystateline.com/news/sta...ol-apologizes/

    And more and more and more I could post.

    "Rules for thee, not for me"

    I'm not affiliated with the government in any way, my desire to do good comes from a higher power.
    "Tell me I am beautiful - it means nothing to me. Tell me I am intellectual - well, I know it already. Tell me I am funny however, and that is the greatest compliment in the world that anyone can give me".

    - Julie Newmar (The Catwoman)

  6. #81
    Not my Tempo Fendi's Avatar
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    I can't tell if you're engaging in a debate/conversation or just throwing incorrect fact/conspiracy for forum amusement?

    Playing a three-hour Rush show is like running a marathon while solving equations.

  7. #82
    Life is good Dice's Avatar
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    Just a question but if it's for the good of the people why did the mandate only apply to large businesses?

    Do the unemployed not need the vaccine? Do small businesses not get Covid? Why some of us and not all of us?


    I'd be very curious as to what would be being said about vaccines if Trump and the Republicans were still in office.
    “It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”

  8. #83
    Über Fan Adam_Prince of Eternia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dice View Post
    Just a question but if it's for the good of the people why did the mandate only apply to large businesses?

    Do the unemployed not need the vaccine? Do small businesses not get Covid? Why some of us and not all of us?


    I'd be very curious as to what would be being said about vaccines if Trump and the Republicans were still in office.
    You cannot be this incurious. The federal government is using the tools legally available to vaccinate as many people as possible. They can change the regulations for businesses over a certain size without having to make changes to the law. If they could legally require it of others, they would. It is not a conspiracy.

  9. #84
    Life is good Dice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam_Prince of Eternia View Post
    You cannot be this incurious. The federal government is using the tools legally available to vaccinate as many people as possible. They can change the regulations for businesses over a certain size without having to make changes to the law. If they could legally require it of others, they would. It is not a conspiracy.
    I thought that the Americans with Disabilities Act was a Federal Mandate. Does it only apply to businesses with 100 or more employees?

    It's not about conspiracy, it's about forcing some and not all.


    But I get it. Some of us want a choice and others believe they're the smartest and need to choose for us. Sounds like two sides of the government.
    “It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”

  10. #85
    Catwoman...Hear Me Roar! Mikey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UsernameMDM View Post




    Which "higher power"?

    The higher power that exists in all of us with the desire to do good and help others, the spirit of decency, compassion and unselfishness.
    "Tell me I am beautiful - it means nothing to me. Tell me I am intellectual - well, I know it already. Tell me I am funny however, and that is the greatest compliment in the world that anyone can give me".

    - Julie Newmar (The Catwoman)

  11. #86
    Heroic Warrior UsernameMDM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikey View Post
    The higher power that exists in all of us with the desire to do good and help others, the spirit of decency, compassion and unselfishness.
    So, I need the shots to protect the people with the shots?

    Wait a minute!

    With surge in Covid-19 cases, Middlebury College moves classes online
    https://vtdigger.org/2021/12/10/with...lasses-online/
    The college is seeing cases in clusters, and most of those who have tested positive have been fully vaccinated, Associate Vice President for Public Affairs Julia Ferrante said in an email to The Campus on Thursday afternoon.
    Most reported U.S. Omicron cases have hit the fully vaccinated -CDC
    https://www.reuters.com/world/us/mos...dc-2021-12-10/
    Most of the 43 COVID-19 cases caused by the Omicron variant identified in the United States so far were in people who were fully vaccinated, and a third of them had received a booster dose, according to a U.S. report published on Friday.

    The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) said that of the 43 cases attributed to Omicron variant, 34 people had been fully vaccinated. Fourteen of them had also received a booster, although five of those cases occurred less than 14 days after the additional shot before full protection kicks in.
    "Full protection"? Does that mean "fully vaccinated"?



    Fauci Says It’s a Matter of ‘When, Not if’ the Definition of Fully Vaccinated Will Change
    https://www.usnews.com/news/health-n...ed-will-change
    Leading infectious disease expert Dr. Anthony Fauci said Wednesday that changing the definition of fully vaccinated to include booster shots is a matter of “when, not if.”
    Fauci’s comment comes amid an emerging debate over what is considered fully vaccinated. Pharmaceutical manufacturer Pfizer reported on Wednesday that three doses of its coronavirus vaccine may offer significant protection against the omicron variant, while just two doses of the vaccine see a large drop in antibody levels against the strain. That led the company’s chief scientific officer Mikael Dolsten to say that being fully vaccinated should include three doses of a vaccine to cover omicron.

    “Go get your third boost and you’ll have a robust, quite impressive antibody response,” Dolsten said. “It’s really time to get the third boost, and you should be very encouraged by this morning’s news.”
    Did I mention this already?

    Covid vaccine profits mint 9 new pharma billionaires
    https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/21/busin...res/index.html
    Covid-19 vaccines have created at least nine new billionaires after shares in companies producing the shots soared.

    Topping the list of new billionaires are Moderna (MRNA) CEO Stéphane Bancel and Ugur Sahin, the CEO of BioNTech (BNTX), which has produced a vaccine with Pfizer (PFE). Both CEOs are now worth around $4 billion, according to an analysis by the People's Vaccine Alliance, a campaign group that includes Oxfam, UNAIDS, Global Justice Now and Amnesty International.
    Yeah, I did, but I'll do it again.

  12. #87
    President of Primus Ornclown's Avatar
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    We need the POWER of the GOOD and the WAY of the MAGIC !!!

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  13. #88
    Master of Hosting Events! JohnnyC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ornclown View Post


    -Johnny C

  14. #89
    Heroic Warrior King Kahn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ornclown View Post
    Haha yeah. It is best into just ignore the dude now.

    The thing dark humor jokes and kids of anti vaxxers have in common is they never get old.
    cogito ergo doleo

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ornclown View Post
    Like I said, forum amusement. I know it's infuriating that he keep posting stuff but, forum amusement is forum amusement.


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  16. #91
    Heroic Warrior Rikki Roxx's Avatar
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    For whatever it's worth, my father worked for "Big Pharma" for almost 30 years, and back when I moved furniture I moved a ton of the bigger companies and saw up-close how things worked "behind the scenes", so I have my own feelings about just how much they actually value human lives and how much of what they do is altruistic versus profit-oriented. But for now, I'll keep most of those feelings to myself.

    I do think it's imperative for people to know and remember, however, that a lot of the people and companies currently making drugs and vaccines, used to make things like shampoo. And that product safety testing standards aren't all that different between them; the people making your insulin generally check the numbers with the same exact stringency (or rather, lack thereof) with which they measure the chemicals in bath soap. You'd THINK they'd feel like it was more important to get it right with life-saving drugs, but to be perfectly blunt that simply isn't the case much of the time.

    I won't name the company my father worked for when he left the business, but they're still in business today. They're one of the largest in the world. In the late-80s, they were bought by and merged with another company, one that formerly specialized in laxatives and toothpaste. The "toothpaste guys" came in and started doing TONS of illegal, unethical stuff. They also fired most of the tenured staff and replaced them with their own people. Several of those people who were let go got a severance payment after they threatened to go to the government and blow the whistle on them. I was a child then, but in the years since I've had the stories corroborated to me by many, many people who worked there at the time. Everything from improper measuring of chemicals ("It's close enough, just ship it! We're on a deadline!" was one common mantra) to "accidentally" giving people cancer by not telling moving crews that they were in a "hot space" full of radiation; they'd tell the crew "You have exactly one hour to get this equipment moved out of this lab" but obviously left out the part where "Because after 60 minutes of exposure you might get sick and die, so y'know... better hustle."

    There was a LOT of very shady and highly-illegal stuff going on, but all of those "secrets" are mostly in the grave with the people who worked there at the time. 5 years later, that same company was given a government citation for all of their wonderful business practices and all the good they do for mankind. They've received tons of awards and are worth about $40 billion today. Even though they measure both toothpaste and heart medicine with the same safety standards, or used to.

    I acknowledge that maaaaaaybe some things have changed since then. But this is the same company where, when I moved them in 2002, they had almost all of their vital records stored in a leaky basement and were aghast when there was a flood and a ton of stuff was destroyed. The higher-ups at the time seemed to think this was somehow an impossibility, rather than a certainty, as if basements never flood. So I'm personally inclined to think they simply don't run a tight ship, and never will.

    Now, to set minds at ease, this company I'm speaking of has nothing to do with the Covid vaccine, as far as I'm aware. BUT. I tell this story simply so that anyone who thinks automatically, "A pharmaceutical company would never, ever compromise the safety of the people in exchange for profits," can maybe reassess their position a little bit. And to explain why even though I don't think the vaccine is "dangerous" or part of some conspiracy, I DO still feel like a bit of healthy skepticism is always a good thing.

    I mean, I will not lie. Every single time anyone anywhere says, "They simply wouldn't let us take it if it weren't 100% safe and effective!", I sigh. Because it may very well BE 100% safe and effective, and I won't argue that one bit.

    It's just that I know for a fact that even if it WASN'T... they'd tell you it was, anyway. That's a promise. And I do feel like more people should know and accept that, and understand why some people are skeptical of it. Sure, some of the "skeptics" are just plain loons, but not everyone. I'm at least entertaining the notion that some of them have seen or heard similar horror stories, and thus have their own reasons why they don't quite trust Big Pharma regardless of what they're putting out there.

    I'm pretty sure there's nothing wrong with the vaccine. It's just the whole "Well OBVIOUSLY it's safe and effective or they wouldn't let us have it!" stuff that gets me. That's just... well, that simply isn't true. I wish they DID care that much, and I wish they DID only have to ship safe, effective products or else be penalized heavily under the law, but... they don't, and they don't.

    I'unno, just my perspective on it. There probably isn't anything "wrong" with it but I definitely understand why it's a hard sell. Not everyone's an idiot or a conspiracy nut; some people have just seen too much to take anything at face value, that's all. Makes sense to me, I empathize with the position.
    Last edited by Rikki Roxx; December 15, 2021 at 05:27am.
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  17. #92
    Heroic Warrior UsernameMDM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ornclown View Post
    Who said I was anti-vax (IF this is pointed at me)?

    Learn to read please. It's not as hard as you might think.

    Quote Originally Posted by UsernameMDM View Post
    And you too sir!
    Not directed at you (at all), but I am 100% against people being bullied and mandated against their will and conscience to get a vaccine, especially if they don't need it. I am 100% for making a decision out of logic, reason, and individual circumstances, not bullying, fear, and paranoia. If someone wants to get the shot(s), fine, do so with a clear conscience, but also take into account the reality that the shots are a fractional part of overall health, not just only against cvd.
    Quote Originally Posted by UsernameMDM View Post
    And if I were in your situation too (age, medical history, etc), I would, at the very least, talk with my Dr and family about getting the shots as part of an overall approach to health. Glad you were able to make that decision and get the help you wanted/needed.
    Quote Originally Posted by UsernameMDM View Post
    I'm not refuting the shots. It's proven time and time again to help against cvd, but not stop/prevent it the contraction and transmission of it. In my eyes, there is just not a high enough benefit for me to take the shots.
    Quote Originally Posted by UsernameMDM View Post
    And that's the point: no one should feel bad for getting the shots or not. No one should be pressured, shamed, or bullied either way.
    Point to one thing, ONE THING, I have posted that you consider a conspiracy, "anti-science", or whatever other word you may use that helps you cling to your fragile narrative.

  18. #93
    Catwoman...Hear Me Roar! Mikey's Avatar
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    I felt taking the vaccine was the right thing to do for me and could help save others. I don't buy into any conspiracy theories, but I do value taking the precautions that will hopefully do good in the world.
    "Tell me I am beautiful - it means nothing to me. Tell me I am intellectual - well, I know it already. Tell me I am funny however, and that is the greatest compliment in the world that anyone can give me".

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  19. #94
    Life is good Dice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikey View Post
    I felt taking the vaccine was the right thing to do for me and could help save others. I don't buy into any conspiracy theories, but I do value taking the precautions that will hopefully do good in the world.
    It was absolutely a very good idea for you to get the vaccine, especially with your history of medical issues. But remember that even vaccinated you can still get, carry, and give Covid to others.
    “It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”

  20. #95
    Moondancin' dedset13's Avatar
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    Mod note:

    Let's remember to keep the discussion from veering into political talk, if you'd like to discuss politics, you must do so in the Tar Swamp. Any further posts discussing politics will receive reminders/infractions. Thanks for keeping this in mind!
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  21. #96
    Heroic Warrior UsernameMDM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dice View Post
    It was absolutely a very good idea for you to get the vaccine, especially with your history of medical issues. But remember that even vaccinated you can still get, carry, and give Covid to others.
    +1. What's so hard to understand about this?

  22. #97
    Catwoman...Hear Me Roar! Mikey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dice View Post
    It was absolutely a very good idea for you to get the vaccine, especially with your history of medical issues. But remember that even vaccinated you can still get, carry, and give Covid to others.
    Then I need to make precautions to ensure that doesn't happen to the best of my ability.
    "Tell me I am beautiful - it means nothing to me. Tell me I am intellectual - well, I know it already. Tell me I am funny however, and that is the greatest compliment in the world that anyone can give me".

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  23. #98
    Life is good Dice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikey View Post
    Then I need to make precautions to ensure that doesn't happen to the best of my ability.
    Yep. We all do.

    Don't go to work or out in public if we feel ill.

    Don't send our sick kid to school.

    Wash hands, keep clean. There's lots we can do to protect ourselves and our neighbors.
    “It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”

  24. #99
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    We are all in this together, no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice View Post
    Yep. We all do.

    Don't go to work or out in public if we feel ill.

    Don't send our sick kid to school.

    Wash hands, keep clean. There's lots we can do to protect ourselves and our neighbors.

  25. #100
    Life is good Dice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heeeere's Olesker! View Post
    We are all in this together, no?
    We are and for the long haul!
    “It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”

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