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Thread: Vaccinations for all

  1. #101
    Master of New Adventures!
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    Heck, we beat polio and smallpox; we can beat this!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice View Post
    We are and for the long haul!

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heeeere's Olesker! View Post
    Heck, we beat polio and smallpox; we can beat this!
    Well, if everyone could accept that this is a major world issues then yes.

    Playing a three-hour Rush show is like running a marathon while solving equations.

  3. #103
    Inappropriate Tree Hugger The.Idea.of.Evil's Avatar
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    I know dedeset13 just posted that there can't be any posts about politics in this thread, and I don't believe what I'm about to post has to do with any politics at all. I think this is more about all people living with rules in general, and so I'll accept the punishments that dedset13 might want to give me if they think I'm going against the rules (hopefully it won't be too harsh if my post is deemed so).

    --

    We have a great letter being circulated around our hospitals that really speaks to the attitudes (again, not the politics) that we as a people need to recognize and overcome as a whole. It was originally a letter to a newspaper that (sadly) wasn't credited before it was sent out, but it's message is really important. It says:


    "You can't make me," they say.

    Do you smoke inside buildings? No. Do you wear a seatbelt? Yes.
    Do you stop at red lights and stop signs? Yes. Why? Because the
    government makes laws for public safety and
    because decent people in civilized societies show respect and care
    for fellow human beings even if it is not the law.

    "You can't make me" is the response a young child having a tantrum
    makes to their parents who are trying to teach them to be responsible,
    good, caring people.

    Citizenship carries both rights and responsibilities.

    Wear a mask. Get vaccinated.



    The vaccinations are proven to be effective at lessening the effects of the Covid virus. Not taking it allows the virus to possibly kill you and thrive long enough in the world for it to mutate and become something else that doctors and scientists need to figure out a treatment for on top of still figuring out the original virus. Most deniers think (and I'm not calling out anyone in these forums as a denier), "You'll only die if you're unhealthy already," and that's nonsense. We know so little about this virus to be able to say what it does as well as what it doesn't do. The point of a vaccination is to keep any pandemic at a minimum, hoping to find a way to beat it before serious harm comes. And why is beating it so important? Well, if you don't want to consider all lives as being important enough, then let's consider the education of the world. Can anyone here create future vaccines for a future virus strain? Can anyone here manufacture a disposable mask for people to wear? Who knows how to run a city-wide power grid? Who knows how to do simple surgeries? Who can raise cattle to feed an entire nation? Who can repair a car engine? Who can sail to continue trades with other nations for vital imports? Who can create art that would be used to make action figures? Who can take that art and sculpt an action figure? Who can mass produce a plastics factory to create said figures? Now what one person can do all of these things and doesn't have to worry if random experts in their fields die from the virus?

    A virus needs to be stopped for every reason you could ever think of when you ask yourself, "why is life worth living?"

    There are no guaranteed, "Covid immunities" any more than there's a "death strain." Catching the virus and getting through it may have a high ratio of success. But the point of taking a vaccination should be that everyone needs to believe that there shouldn't any kind of chance of cathcing it and dying/living at all - the virus should not exist for anyone to have to go through. No matter how small or how high of a chance you have of getting through it, you should never allow it to germinate and mutate for someone else to have to deal with, let alone you catching it again and rolling the dice with your health one more time. And let it be known, the point of any virus, Covid or not, is not mother nature's way of weeding out the weak - that's absurd. It's a virus, and it's the human race's responsibility to defeat it. Do deniers want to forget New York and how refrigerated trucks were being brought in to the streets because there wasn't enough space to hold all the dead bodies when this started? Do we really want to go back to that? Do deniers think the virus killed the weak, and that's why the death toll is lower today than it was then? The original Covid strain mutated into the Delta strain because it had the time to mutate. A new Covid strain popped up in South Africa - called Omicron - in a place that still doesn't have access to the vaccine in large quantities that the US is taking for granted. And news is coming out that that Omicron strain will more than likely mutate in the next year ON TOP OF IT already being more infectious than the Delta strain. There are also Beta and Gamma strains out there. But we have to ignore them to an extent because Delta is still so dangerous right now - Delta's even on the verge of mutating again for us to have to deal with.

    Yes, getting vaccinations is important. Yes, getting the third booster is important. Arguing about money and who's benefiting from a shot has nothing to do with the virus being here and being a threat. Beat the threat. Then we can argue with each other about how we beat it afterwards.
    Last edited by The.Idea.of.Evil; December 16, 2021 at 08:36am.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by The.Idea.of.Evil View Post
    I know dedeset13 just posted that there can't be any posts about politics in this thread, and I don't believe what I'm about to post has to do with any politics at all. I think this is more about all people living with rules in general, and so I'll accept the punishments that dedset13 might want to give me if they think I'm going against the rules (hopefully it won't be too harsh if my post is deemed so).

    --

    We have a great letter being circulated around our hospitals that really speaks to the attitudes (again, not the politics) that we as a people need to recognize and overcome as a whole. It was originally a letter to a newspaper that (sadly) wasn't credited before it was sent out, but it's message is really important. It says:


    "You can't make me," they say.

    Do you smoke inside buildings? No. Do you wear a seatbelt? Yes.
    Do you stop at red lights and stop signs? Yes. Why? Because the
    government makes laws for public safety and
    because decent people in civilized societies show respect and care
    for fellow human beings even if it is not the law.

    "You can't make me" is the response a young child having a tantrum
    makes to their parents who are trying to teach them to be responsible,
    good, caring people.

    Citizenship carries both rights and responsibilities.

    Wear a mask. Get vaccinated.



    The vaccinations are proven to be effective at lessening the effects of the Covid virus. Not taking it allows the virus to possibly kill you and thrive long enough in the world for it to mutate and become something else that doctors and scientists need to figure out a treatment for on top of still figuring out the original virus. Most deniers think (and I'm not calling out anyone in these forums as a denier), "You'll only die if you're unhealthy already," and that's nonsense. We know so little about this virus to be able to say what it does as well as what it doesn't do. The point of a vaccination is to keep any pandemic at a minimum, hoping to find a way to beat it before serious harm comes. And why is beating it so important? Well, if you don't want to consider all lives as being important enough, then let's consider the education of the world. Can anyone here create future vaccines for a future virus strain? Can anyone here manufacture a disposable mask for people to wear? Who knows how to run a city-wide power grid? Who knows how to do simple surgeries? Who can raise cattle to feed an entire nation? Who can repair a car engine? Who can sail to continue trades with other nations for vital imports? Who can create art that would be used to make action figures? Who can take that art and sculpt an action figure? Who can mass produce a plastics factory to create said figures? Now what one person can do all of these things and doesn't have to worry if random experts in their fields die from the virus?

    A virus needs to be stopped for every reason you could ever think of when you ask yourself, "why is life worth living?"

    There are no guaranteed, "Covid immunities" any more than there's a "death strain." Catching the virus and getting through it may have a high ratio of success. But the point of taking a vaccination should be that everyone needs to believe that there shouldn't any kind of chance of cathcing it and dying/living at all - the virus should not exist for anyone to have to go through. No matter how small or how high of a chance you have of getting through it, you should never allow it to germinate and mutate for someone else to have to deal with, let alone you catching it again and rolling the dice with your health one more time. And let it be known, the point of any virus, Covid or not, is not mother nature's way of weeding out the weak - that's absurd. It's a virus, and it's the human race's responsibility to defeat it. Do deniers want to forget New York and how refrigerated trucks were being brought in to the streets because there wasn't enough space to hold all the dead bodies when this started? Do we really want to go back to that? Do deniers think the virus killed the weak, and that's why the death toll is lower today than it was then? The original Covid strain mutated into the Delta strain because it had the time to mutate. A new Covid strain popped up in South Africa - called Omicron - in a place that still doesn't have access to the vaccine in large quantities that the US is taking for granted. And news is coming out that that Omicron strain will more than likely mutate in the next year ON TOP OF IT already being more infectious than the Delta strain. There are also Beta and Gamma strains out there. But we have to ignore them to an extent because Delta is still so dangerous right now - Delta's even on the verge of mutating again for us to have to deal with.

    Yes, getting vaccinations is important. Yes, getting the third booster is important. Arguing about money and who's benefiting from a shot has nothing to do with the virus being here and being a threat. Beat the threat. Then we can argue with each other about how we beat it afterwards.
    A-freaking-men.

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  5. #105
    Life is good Dice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The.Idea.of.Evil View Post
    "You can't make me," they say.

    Do you smoke inside buildings? No. Do you wear a seatbelt? Yes.
    Do you stop at red lights and stop signs? Yes. Why? Because the
    government makes laws for public safety and
    because decent people in civilized societies show respect and care
    for fellow human beings even if it is not the law.

    "You can't make me" is the response a young child having a tantrum
    makes to their parents who are trying to teach them to be responsible,
    good, caring people.

    Citizenship carries both rights and responsibilities.

    Wear a mask. Get vaccinated.
    The "government" is a group of our elected officials. If our elected officials believe something needs to be a law and votes for it to happen, then the rest of us must comply (until we elect new officials to change the law).

    Look up vaccine mandate and see how many news stories you can find where our elected officials are actively fighting this mandate.
    Last edited by dedset13; December 17, 2021 at 03:57pm.
    “It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”

  6. #106
    Heroic Warrior UsernameMDM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dice View Post
    Look up vaccine mandate and see how many news stories you can find where our elected officials are actively fighting this mandate.
    And then go look at how many mandates have been stuck down by courts. Mandates =/= laws.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by The.Idea.of.Evil View Post
    The vaccinations are proven to be effective at lessening the effects of the Covid virus.
    Yes. And that is about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by The.Idea.of.Evil View Post
    Not taking it allows the virus to possibly kill you and thrive long enough in the world for it to mutate and become something else that doctors and scientists need to figure out a treatment for on top of still figuring out the original virus.
    Then why have the vast majority of omnicron variant infections reported in the US come from people who received the shots?

    Most reported U.S. Omicron cases have hit the fully vaccinated -CDC
    https://www.reuters.com/world/us/mos...dc-2021-12-10/
    The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) said that of the 43 cases attributed to Omicron variant, 34 people had been fully vaccinated. Fourteen of them had also received a booster, although five of those cases occurred less than 14 days after the additional shot before full protection kicks in.
    Quote Originally Posted by The.Idea.of.Evil View Post
    Most deniers think (and I'm not calling out anyone in these forums as a denier), "You'll only die if you're unhealthy already," and that's nonsense.
    I think you are misinterpret people saying someone is more likely to die (like a lot more likely) with comorbidities. And that is a fact.

    People with Certain Medical Conditions
    https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...onditions.html

    Quote Originally Posted by The.Idea.of.Evil View Post
    We know so little about this virus to be able to say what it does as well as what it doesn't do. The point of a vaccination is to keep any pandemic at a minimum, hoping to find a way to beat it before serious harm comes. And why is beating it so important?
    Cvd will not go away.

    The coronavirus is here to stay — here’s what that means
    https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00396-2

    Quote Originally Posted by The.Idea.of.Evil View Post
    Catching the virus and getting through it may have a high ratio of success.
    Like really, really high. Let's look at USA #s:
    2020 USA Population - 329.5 million
    USA Cvd Cases - 50.3 million
    USA Cvd Deaths - 801K

    Likelihood of contracting cvd in the USA (cases/pop) - 15%
    Likelihood of dying after contracting cvd in the USA (deaths/cases) - 1.6%
    Likelihood of dying of cvd in the USA (deaths/pop) - 0.25%

    Now let's go WORLDWIDE!!!
    2020 World Population - 7.75 billion
    World Cvd Cases - 272 million
    World Cvd Deaths - 5.33 million

    Likelihood of contracting cvd anywhere in the World (cases/pop) - 3.5%
    Likelihood of dying after contracting cvd anywhere in the World (deaths/cases) - 1.96%
    Likelihood of dying of cvd anywhere in the World (deaths/pop) - 0.07%

    And, as a bonus...

    % of cvd deaths with comorbidities? 90%+

    Unusually High Risks of COVID-19 Mortality with Age-Related Comorbidities: An Adjusted Meta-Analysis Method to Improve the Risk Assessment of Mortality Using the Comorbid Mortality Data
    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34449622/
    Results: A total of 39,451 COVID-19 deaths were identified from four States that had comorbidity data, including Alabama, Louisiana, Mississippi, and New York. 92.8% of the COVID-19 deaths were associated with a pre-existing comorbidity. The risk of mortality associated with at least one comorbidity combined was 1113 times higher than that with no comorbidity. The comparative analysis identified nine comorbidities with odds ratios of up to 35 times higher than no comorbidities. Of them, the top four comorbidities were: hypertension (odds ratio 34.73; 95% CI 3.63-331.91; p = 0.002), diabetes (odds ratio 20.16; 95% CI 5.55-73.18; p < 0.00001), cardiovascular disease (odds ratio 18.91; 95% CI 2.88-124.38; p = 0.002), and chronic kidney disease (odds ratio 12.34; 95% CI 9.90-15.39; p < 0.00001). Interestingly, lung disease added only a modest increase in risk (odds ratio 6.69; 95% CI 1.06-42.26; p < 0.00001).

    Conclusion: The aforementioned comorbidities show surprisingly high risks of COVID-19 mortality when compared to the population with no comorbidity. Major comorbidities were enriched with pre-existing comorbidities that are common with increasing age (cardiovascular disease, diabetes, and hypertension). The COVID-19 deaths were mostly associated with at least one comorbidity, which may be a source of the bias leading to the underestimation of the mortality risks previously reported. We note that the method has limitations stemming primarily from the availability of the data. Taken together, this type of study is useful to approximate the risks, which most likely provide an updated awareness of age-related comorbidities.
    Let's also look at that gallup poll again:

    U.S. Adults' Estimates of COVID-19 Hospitalization Risk
    https://news.gallup.com/opinion/gall...tion-risk.aspx
    The results show that most Americans overstate the risk of hospitalization for both groups: 92% overstate the risk that unvaccinated people will be hospitalized, and 62% overstate the risk for vaccinated people.
    Quote Originally Posted by The.Idea.of.Evil View Post
    Do deniers want to forget New York and how refrigerated trucks were being brought in to the streets because there wasn't enough space to hold all the dead bodies when this started?
    I also remember when the Navy hospital ship left because of so few patients.

    Hospital ship Comfort departs NYC, having treated fewer than 200 patients
    https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-...-200-patients/
    By the time of Comfort’s departure, the approximately 1,200-person crew and 1,000-bed hospital had treated just 182 patients, of which approximately 70 percent had COVID-19, according to Capt. Patrick Amersbach, commanding officer of the Comfort’s Medical Treatment Facility.

    Underutilization of added medical resources in New York City is not unique to the Comfort. Thousands of hospital beds made available in a converted convention center have gone largely unused after quick assembly by the Army Corps of Engineers.

    The Javits Center, which was initially envisioned as a 2,500-bed field hospital for non-COVID patients, converted to coronavirus-only hospital shortly after going operational. Still, the highest number of patients treated at the convention center at one time topped out at close to 500.
    Quote Originally Posted by The.Idea.of.Evil View Post
    Do deniers think the virus killed the weak, and that's why the death toll is lower today than it was then?
    I think provisional mortality numbers for 2020 show an increase in deaths, with about 375k contributed to cvd. I do wonder if, over the next few years, that number will average out back to 'normal' adjusted for population growth, etc? I guess we will find out in a few years.

    https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/deaths.htm
    https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7014e1.htm
    During 2020, COVID-19 was listed as the underlying or contributing cause of 377,883 deaths (91.5 per 100,000 population).
    Quote Originally Posted by The.Idea.of.Evil View Post
    A new Covid strain popped up in South Africa - called Omicron - in a place that still doesn't have access to the vaccine in large quantities that the US is taking for granted. And news is coming out that that Omicron strain will more than likely mutate in the next year ON TOP OF IT already being more infectious than the Delta strain. There are also Beta and Gamma strains out there. But we have to ignore them to an extent because Delta is still so dangerous right now - Delta's even on the verge of mutating again for us to have to deal with.
    CALM. DOWN.

    Also,

    Omicron symptoms could seem like a cold — but don’t underestimate this variant, experts warn
    https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/16/omic...ses-shows.html
    Experts are warning that the strain could be easily mistaken for a mild, everyday illness.




    Quote Originally Posted by The.Idea.of.Evil View Post
    Yes, getting vaccinations is important.
    For most people, it's optional. If you're a member of a vulnerable group, then yes, it is important or at least something to consider.

    Quote Originally Posted by The.Idea.of.Evil View Post
    Yes, getting the third booster is important.
    So will the 4th, 5th, 6th.....

    Quote Originally Posted by The.Idea.of.Evil View Post
    Arguing about money and who's benefiting from a shot has nothing to do with the virus being here and being a threat.
    Because we should take no consideration of the actual threat and how it affects us individually and how some people are so evil that they will stir up/manufacture a crisis in order to profit from it?


    Quote Originally Posted by The.Idea.of.Evil View Post
    Beat the threat. Then we can argue with each other about how we beat it afterwards.
    How about we develop realistic and effective strategies in the meantime like encourage people to actually take care of themselves physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually and be realistic about what the shots actually can and can't do? How many lives could have been saved if someone had to guts to call someone they loved fat and be real about it?
    Last edited by UsernameMDM; December 16, 2021 at 01:25pm.

  7. #107
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    The idea that vaccination isn't necessary due to overall infection rates is just a selfish, lazy excuse. We're at 800,000 deaths and climbing (just in the U.S. alone)…

    Again, vaccination mandates are legal. George Washington enacted the first one. The Supreme Court has upheld them.

    Thankfully today's population wasn't around to downplay the dangers of spreading illness when we got rid of other diseases. Everyone still has to have mandated vaccines in order to go to school and college. Public health is more important than perceived individual freedom…as stated by the Supreme Court in 1905.
    Last edited by chuc98; December 16, 2021 at 08:24pm.
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  8. #108
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    Well said. I don't think this has to do with politics. I think it has to do with common sense and concern for each other. And as much as I am a proponent of vaccinations, I continue to believe it is a personal choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by The.Idea.of.Evil View Post
    I know dedeset13 just posted that there can't be any posts about politics in this thread, and I don't believe what I'm about to post has to do with any politics at all. I think this is more about all people living with rules in general, and so I'll accept the punishments that dedset13 might want to give me if they think I'm going against the rules (hopefully it won't be too harsh if my post is deemed so).

    --

    We have a great letter being circulated around our hospitals that really speaks to the attitudes (again, not the politics) that we as a people need to recognize and overcome as a whole. It was originally a letter to a newspaper that (sadly) wasn't credited before it was sent out, but it's message is really important. It says:


    "You can't make me," they say.

    Do you smoke inside buildings? No. Do you wear a seatbelt? Yes.
    Do you stop at red lights and stop signs? Yes. Why? Because the
    government makes laws for public safety and
    because decent people in civilized societies show respect and care
    for fellow human beings even if it is not the law.

    "You can't make me" is the response a young child having a tantrum
    makes to their parents who are trying to teach them to be responsible,
    good, caring people.

    Citizenship carries both rights and responsibilities.

    Wear a mask. Get vaccinated.



    The vaccinations are proven to be effective at lessening the effects of the Covid virus. Not taking it allows the virus to possibly kill you and thrive long enough in the world for it to mutate and become something else that doctors and scientists need to figure out a treatment for on top of still figuring out the original virus. Most deniers think (and I'm not calling out anyone in these forums as a denier), "You'll only die if you're unhealthy already," and that's nonsense. We know so little about this virus to be able to say what it does as well as what it doesn't do. The point of a vaccination is to keep any pandemic at a minimum, hoping to find a way to beat it before serious harm comes. And why is beating it so important? Well, if you don't want to consider all lives as being important enough, then let's consider the education of the world. Can anyone here create future vaccines for a future virus strain? Can anyone here manufacture a disposable mask for people to wear? Who knows how to run a city-wide power grid? Who knows how to do simple surgeries? Who can raise cattle to feed an entire nation? Who can repair a car engine? Who can sail to continue trades with other nations for vital imports? Who can create art that would be used to make action figures? Who can take that art and sculpt an action figure? Who can mass produce a plastics factory to create said figures? Now what one person can do all of these things and doesn't have to worry if random experts in their fields die from the virus?

    A virus needs to be stopped for every reason you could ever think of when you ask yourself, "why is life worth living?"

    There are no guaranteed, "Covid immunities" any more than there's a "death strain." Catching the virus and getting through it may have a high ratio of success. But the point of taking a vaccination should be that everyone needs to believe that there shouldn't any kind of chance of cathcing it and dying/living at all - the virus should not exist for anyone to have to go through. No matter how small or how high of a chance you have of getting through it, you should never allow it to germinate and mutate for someone else to have to deal with, let alone you catching it again and rolling the dice with your health one more time. And let it be known, the point of any virus, Covid or not, is not mother nature's way of weeding out the weak - that's absurd. It's a virus, and it's the human race's responsibility to defeat it. Do deniers want to forget New York and how refrigerated trucks were being brought in to the streets because there wasn't enough space to hold all the dead bodies when this started? Do we really want to go back to that? Do deniers think the virus killed the weak, and that's why the death toll is lower today than it was then? The original Covid strain mutated into the Delta strain because it had the time to mutate. A new Covid strain popped up in South Africa - called Omicron - in a place that still doesn't have access to the vaccine in large quantities that the US is taking for granted. And news is coming out that that Omicron strain will more than likely mutate in the next year ON TOP OF IT already being more infectious than the Delta strain. There are also Beta and Gamma strains out there. But we have to ignore them to an extent because Delta is still so dangerous right now - Delta's even on the verge of mutating again for us to have to deal with.

    Yes, getting vaccinations is important. Yes, getting the third booster is important. Arguing about money and who's benefiting from a shot has nothing to do with the virus being here and being a threat. Beat the threat. Then we can argue with each other about how we beat it afterwards.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by The.Idea.of.Evil View Post
    I know dedeset13 just posted that there can't be any posts about politics in this thread, and I don't believe what I'm about to post has to do with any politics at all. I think this is more about all people living with rules in general, and so I'll accept the punishments that dedset13 might want to give me if they think I'm going against the rules (hopefully it won't be too harsh if my post is deemed so).
    That's just it... it's not a political debate at all, but a lot of people are trying like crazy to make it one.

    Quote Originally Posted by The.Idea.of.Evil View Post
    "You can't make me," they say.

    Do you smoke inside buildings? No. Do you wear a seatbelt? Yes.
    Do you stop at red lights and stop signs? Yes. Why? Because the
    government makes laws for public safety and
    because decent people in civilized societies show respect and care
    for fellow human beings even if it is not the law.

    "You can't make me" is the response a young child having a tantrum
    makes to their parents who are trying to teach them to be responsible,
    good, caring people.

    Citizenship carries both rights and responsibilities.

    Wear a mask. Get vaccinated.
    This all sums it up beautifully.

    Quote Originally Posted by chuc98 View Post
    The idea that vaccination isn't necessary due to overall infection rates is just a selfish, lazy excuse. We're at 800,000 deaths and climbing (just in the U.S. alone)…

    Again, vaccination mandates are legal. George Washington enacted the first one. The Supreme Court has upheld them.

    Thankfully today's population wasn't around to downplay the dangers of spreading illness when we got rid of other diseases. Everyone still has to have mandated vaccines in order to go to school and college. Public health is more important than perceived individual freedom…as stated by the Supreme Court in 1905.
    This. This 100%
    We need the POWER of the GOOD and the WAY of the MAGIC !!!

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  10. #110
    Not my Tempo Fendi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heeeere's Olesker! View Post
    Well said. I don't think this has to do with politics. I think it has to do with common sense and concern for each other. And as much as I am a proponent of vaccinations, I continue to believe it is a personal choice.
    I'm okay with personal choice of not vaccination, but the consequences not having vaccine in public will hinder the process of the recovery. I'm not "cancelling" the anti vax, that's their choice but also you can't preach or force other people not to make vaccine, they have their choice to take one like as we respect you doesn't want to take vaccination.

    to make it short: If you're not vaccination: stay away until the pandemic's over and
    if you're preaching about con of vaccination and pro anti vaccination? join Jehovah Witnesses instead.

    Playing a three-hour Rush show is like running a marathon while solving equations.

  11. #111
    Inappropriate Tree Hugger The.Idea.of.Evil's Avatar
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    I appreciate you taking the time to respond to some of the different points I made in my post. So, lemme give the same courtesy back =)

    Quote Originally Posted by UsernameMDM View Post
    And then go look at how many mandates have been stuck down by courts. Mandates =/= laws.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Yes. And that is about it.
    There's no test or outward examination that anyone can get that says if you're healthy enough to catch Covid and not die from it, or suffer from lingering effects from it for the rest of your life. Right now it's not being mandated because there is no cure for the disease, only a vaccine to help with the disease. And that's what allows anti-vaxxers to get away with not being forced to take it. They don't see how it will help them and help anyone else, and they don't have to when there's no outright fix. But all doctors know, if a cure comes out people will be forced take it (especially if they're being idiots who would try not taking a cure at all).

    And for the sake of knowing what this vaccine does, let's understand how a virus works. If it's allowed to infect and flourish in a person's system without there being any kind of treatment, it has a chance to further mutate, become more infectious, and even nest in a person's body so that it becomes a reoccurring flare up for them at random times for the rest of their life. In general, vaccines don't allow the virus to dominate your system to get strong enough to do such things because you'll get over it quicker while it protects you and others around you by not letting it get out of control.


    Quote Originally Posted by UsernameMDM View Post
    Then why have the vast majority of omnicron variant infections reported in the US come from people who received the shots?

    Most reported U.S. Omicron cases have hit the fully vaccinated -CDC
    https://www.reuters.com/world/us/mos...dc-2021-12-10/
    Because there aren't that many people in the US who have been infected, and most all of our data is coming from what South America has been sharing with us. In San Francisco, the first US Omicron patient was evaluated (less than a month ago), and we found out that the very basic protein of Omicron had signs of being more contagious because of the literal spikes that stick to your cells being present in it. We know it's more infectious, and from the very little (early) data we have, we know the symptoms are not as harsh as the Delta variant is. But the point of taking the vaccination is that we don't know what it does to Omicron outside of it does help with symptoms, based on the few thousand infected patients who took the vaccination in SA.

    Now, it is important to know is that Omicron may be a more mild version of Covid for right now. But it will mutate on top of what it is already - which as said above is a more infectious strain of the virus.

    It's impossible to argue that taking a vaccine is worthless when the vaccine wasn't made for the Omicron strain because it was made before this strain appeared, And how it's actually showing some positive benefits to the patients who are infected with this new strain. You might as well argue that you're feet are cold and there's a blanket available that you don't want to use, and that the blanket won't do your friend any good either because his/her hair is wet. The blanket would kind of help your friend, but you can't dismiss it for both of you when you and your friend are two different ailments.


    Quote Originally Posted by UsernameMDM View Post
    I think you are misinterpret people saying someone is more likely to die (like a lot more likely) with comorbidities. And that is a fact.

    People with Certain Medical Conditions
    https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...onditions.html
    You're misinterpreting what this article is saying. When the word "likely" is used in a science journal, that doesn't mean it's a fact. The point of what the CDC is saying here is to give a basic understanding of who should benefit from the vaccine in what ways. In no way does this say, "it's pointless to take the vaccine if you're such-and-such type of person." It wants to tell you what current research has revealed about what this vaccine MIGHT do to a certain kind of patient with other ailments. In my earlier post in this thread I said, "there are people who can't take the vaccine," and that's absolutely true. But there is a basic understanding that a lot of people who can (and should) take it are missing about the possibilities of becoming sick from the vaccine versus become sick from Covid itself. If you're sick from the virus, it's an unknown factor. If you're sick from the vaccine, it's a known factor. Doctors and scientists are going to have a better time developing treatments if a person becomes sick from a vaccine since they know what ingredients they used to create it are than they would know from a sick person who randomly caught a virus that's at any stage of mutating out in nature.

    No one is saying that anything the vaccine does is 100% going to protect you. But not taking it is irresponsible to the world who's doing their best trying to fight it - especially when the vaccine is proving to reduce symptoms in a majority of its population.



    Quote Originally Posted by UsernameMDM View Post
    Cvd will not go away.

    The coronavirus is here to stay — here’s what that means
    https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00396-2
    https://www.cdc.gov/measles/cases-outbreaks.html

    Nothing goes away, in all practicality. Look at how the measles returned to the US in 2019 when anti-vaxxers decided that since it wasn't around anymore that it was pointless to take a shot for it. Diseases linger - constantly. The point of vaccinations is to keep it out of circulation in a large community (the country) by suppressing it so it can't thrive and do anything harmful. Covid will be around, but that doesn't mean it can't be controlled and dissipated to a point where only a handful of individuals might contract it per year. But we need to get to that point, and we're only going to get there if everyone in the country can get on board to fighting this through science and not fighting it through chance/"natural Covid immunities"



    Quote Originally Posted by UsernameMDM View Post
    Like really, really high. Let's look at USA #s:
    2020 USA Population - 329.5 million
    USA Cvd Cases - 50.3 million
    USA Cvd Deaths - 801K

    Likelihood of contracting cvd in the USA (cases/pop) - 15%
    Likelihood of dying after contracting cvd in the USA (deaths/cases) - 1.6%
    Likelihood of dying of cvd in the USA (deaths/pop) - 0.25%

    Now let's go WORLDWIDE!!!
    2020 World Population - 7.75 billion
    World Cvd Cases - 272 million
    World Cvd Deaths - 5.33 million

    Likelihood of contracting cvd anywhere in the World (cases/pop) - 3.5%
    Likelihood of dying after contracting cvd anywhere in the World (deaths/cases) - 1.96%
    Likelihood of dying of cvd anywhere in the World (deaths/pop) - 0.07%

    And, as a bonus...

    % of cvd deaths with comorbidities? 90%+

    Unusually High Risks of COVID-19 Mortality with Age-Related Comorbidities: An Adjusted Meta-Analysis Method to Improve the Risk Assessment of Mortality Using the Comorbid Mortality Data
    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34449622/


    Let's also look at that gallup poll again:

    U.S. Adults' Estimates of COVID-19 Hospitalization Risk
    https://news.gallup.com/opinion/gall...tion-risk.aspx

    We have a US population of 329.5 million people. We have a current death toll of 802,000 in the US alone, with only 50.5 million active infected patients. The audacity to think that the ratio of 800k people dying is nothing because we have a total population of 300+ million people in this country in any way is disgusting. What happens when it becomes 801k dead? What happens when it becomes 900k? What happens when it gets just to the point of being unstoppable because enough people said, "eh, more people will survive than die" ? No one would let their house have a minor water leak in the back and not fix it right away because, "it's not a big deal." But if people want to think that this virus will never touch them, their friends, their family, and that someone else will fix it or it'll just go away on its own, then they're stupid. And what's most stupid is that there are people fighting the vaccine, fighting the masks, and fighting distancing, rather than just helping each other out because, "the infection rate is so low." It's an absurdly childish and irresponsible mindset to have when death is involved.


    Quote Originally Posted by UsernameMDM View Post
    I also remember when the Navy hospital ship left because of so few patients.

    Hospital ship Comfort departs NYC, having treated fewer than 200 patients
    https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-...-200-patients/
    No, it wasn't that there were so few Covid patients that they left - certainly not in New York. The ship was there to help with non-Corona virus hospital needs (like broken bones, chest pains, vision problems, etc). But because of New York's shut downs and social distancing, there weren't a lot of hospital needs outside of the Corona virus, so the ship left after having been there for 1 month already. Ships cost money, getting patients to a ship is difficult, and keeping it in New York for so few non-Corona cases made no sense. This is a non-factor to any reason why the virus isn't a danger - whether from now or from a year ago.



    Quote Originally Posted by UsernameMDM View Post
    I think provisional mortality numbers for 2020 show an increase in deaths, with about 375k contributed to cvd. I do wonder if, over the next few years, that number will average out back to 'normal' adjusted for population growth, etc? I guess we will find out in a few years.

    https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/deaths.htm
    https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7014e1.htm
    What's hard to say is what this virus will be in a couple of years. Mutations are a very real and very dangerous thing to have to count on happening. Also, you can never measure deaths in a simple "per year" or "per era" calculation. You have to measure it per week and per month. Because 52 deaths in a year doesn't sound bad. But if you dissect it, was it 1 death every week, or 52 deaths in one month, etc etc - and Covid cases equal to the thousands per month, and who knows per thousand infections what the death rate will be in the weeks to come over the next few years.




    Quote Originally Posted by UsernameMDM View Post
    CALM. DOWN.

    Also,

    Omicron symptoms could seem like a cold — but don’t underestimate this variant, experts warn
    https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/16/omic...ses-shows.html


    https://i.imgur.com/nkHTJZ6.png

    This is a very disingenuous part of your post. No one's panicking or freaking out here. But to postulate that any variants to the Corona virus showing up is a small thing to worry about is very unsettling. No one here is screaming or acting irrational talking about this, yet this is the kind of response that a lot of deniers want to give when they have no leg to stand on. You've posted good information so far, but you're going to conclude that what all you've referenced (and misinterpreted) as leading to everyone else that is talking about mutations and plans to stay safe from them in the future as being overblown worriers? I'm not saying there aren't people out there who aren't overreacting to every little cough or sniffle. But it's always better to caution on the safe side than not when it comes to diseases. And it's sad when a lot of the ways deniers use an exception as theirare thinking about this virus when the don't want to take responsibility in doing their part to fight it.



    Quote Originally Posted by UsernameMDM View Post
    For most people, it's optional. If you're a member of a vulnerable group, then yes, it is important or at least something to consider.
    There is no "vulnerable group" versus "invulnerable group" in this situation. Everyone can catch it. Everyone can get sick from the vaccine. But the vaccine is what's going to prevent the virus from mutating - which all virus' do.


    Quote Originally Posted by UsernameMDM View Post
    So will the 4th, 5th, 6th.....
    If there are going to be more, then there are going to be more. And at what point does a person finally take it? And if they have to keep taking it, are they going to stop and risk letting it come back? See the Measles comment above.


    Quote Originally Posted by UsernameMDM View Post
    Because we should take no consideration of the actual threat and how it affects us individually and how some people are so evil that they will stir up/manufacture a crisis in order to profit from it?
    But this isn't a manufactured crisis. The virus is here. It's killing people - indiscriminately. No one knows what type of person it will kill. It's not known what kind of lingering effects there will be left in a person. It's not known what it might mutate into in the coming weeks/months/years. And this boils down to the responsibility of being a good American, let alone member of the human race. Why are you (the general "you") taking it upon yourself to deny a treatment during a pandemic? Is it because you think you're healthy enough to live through it alone? Or is it because of the politics of, "who's saying what to who" that's guiding your actions?


    Quote Originally Posted by UsernameMDM View Post
    How about we develop realistic and effective strategies in the meantime like encourage people to actually take care of themselves physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually and be realistic about what the shots actually can and can't do? How many lives could have been saved if someone had to guts to call someone they loved fat and be real about it?
    Because it's unrealistic to think that you can dictate to people to take care of themselves mentally and physically and emotionally and spiritually before the virus dictates that more people will die. If anti-vaxers want to stand on a soap box and tell others why their lives are so crappy, then you have to blame them as much as you need to blame the Coca-Cola industry, McDonalds (fast in general), farms that inject growth hormones, stimulus check approvals that should go to help the less fortunate so they can afford better food and lifestyles, etc etc. But at no time during this blaming do you get to deny that the virus is here and that the current treatments (vaccinations and distance practices) are all some worthless scheme that isn't helping the world. Or does it not matter because people should have been taking care of themselves this whole time? This isn't "the Burger King-virus". This isn't "the be happier virus". This is a virus that affects everyone, including the poster children of perfect health.

    Look at the San Francisco/Bay Area and California - A high population state that just announced another lockdown. Yet, the SF/Bay Area are the only ones being allowed to maintain their current "mask off indoors" policy because they have an above 85% vaccinated population, are all wearing masks and distancing even with indoor freedoms, and there aren't many positive Covid cases here that are running rampantly out of control. You want proof as to what's working? Look at them. You want proof of what isn't working? Look at every central northern state in the US (plus New Mexico) and see how they're doing the exact opposite practices. They all have a high infection rate, and it doesn't matter if there's a good chance that a lot of them will make it out okay because one day they won't. And that's a fact.


    Again, I'm not here to stand on any soap box myself. But I am here to say there are facts out there, there are people misinterpreting facts who are thinking they mean something else, and there are certainly people giving false facts. But we should all stay safe. No one can force anyone to do anything they don't want to. But at the same time, you have to be responsible to the person(s) around you to make sure we can stay safe.

    Be safe. Be respectful. And mostly, just don't be dismissive of everyone else.
    Last edited by The.Idea.of.Evil; December 17, 2021 at 09:44am.

  12. #112
    Heroic Warrior King Kahn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heeeere's Olesker! View Post
    Heck, we beat polio and smallpox; we can beat this!
    And do you know how they were beaten….. VACCINATIONS.
    cogito ergo doleo

  13. #113
    Heroic Warrior Rikki Roxx's Avatar
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    Yes indeed. Vaccinations. 100%.

    Vaccinations that had many years of clinical tests and trials, first, before being put out for mass consumption. Not just for purposes of safety, but also effectiveness. We didn't get them "when we needed/wanted them", we got them when they were ready and not before. Which unfortunately took a very long time.

    I can see why the current situation feels a little bit different, to some. Not all things are equal and the situations thus aren't directly comparable beyond the surface level. "We had a disease, and we eradicated it with vaccines." That much is 100% true, but there's a LOT left unsaid by that statement when comparing Then to Now.

    Just playing Devil's Advocate. I feel like the urgency of the current situation has perhaps expedited things by force. But I'm still a bit confused at how this one time, "magically", they were able to come up with a vaccine to combat the disease when traditionally that takes years, if not decades. This thing took everyone by surprise and yet they still had a shot available in less than a year. I won't push back too hard against anyone who thinks that sounds a bit off.

    Like if it came out ten years from now that "Yeah, it was actually a placebo, we just wanted people to have peace of mind and stop freaking about about going outside, so we gave them This just to tide them over while we developed a 'real' one," would anyone honestly be shocked? I wouldn't. Not saying that IS what they did but I'm saying it wouldn't shock me either.

    I have my own theories as to how they were able to produce an effective vaccine so quickly this one time, but I think they're probably too "offsides" for this section of the forum, so I won't get too deep into it. All I can say is, I think they know more than they let on about where the virus really came from, and in turn that knowledge helped them develop a vaccine for it a lot more quickly than they were able to develop ones for "truly" unknown diseases. That's what makes sense to me. Otherwise, I can't fathom how they managed to do it in roughly a year. Something's fuzzy there.
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  14. #114
    Master of DVDs BCI Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rikki Roxx View Post
    Just playing Devil's Advocate. I feel like the urgency of the current situation has perhaps expedited things by force. But I'm still a bit confused at how this one time, "magically", they were able to come up with a vaccine to combat the disease when traditionally that takes years, if not decades. This thing took everyone by surprise and yet they still had a shot available in less than a year. I won't push back too hard against anyone who thinks that sounds a bit off.
    Nothing magical about it. It was decades in the making. Here is just one of countless articles on mRNA vaccines:

    https://www.uab.edu/news/youcanuse/i...uickly-be-safe

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by The.Idea.of.Evil View Post
    I appreciate you taking the time to respond to some of the different points I made in my post. So, lemme give the same courtesy back =)
    This was a truly outstanding post. Thank you for the time you put into it.

  15. #115
    Heroic Warrior UsernameMDM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuc98 View Post
    The idea that vaccination isn't necessary due to overall infection rates is just a selfish, lazy excuse. We're at 800,000 deaths and climbing (just in the U.S. alone)…
    The CDC's wording says those deaths aren't from cvd alone, and, as previously pointed out, the vast majority of those deaths with cvd as the last straw that broke the camels back. What's really lazy is people not taking care of themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by chuc98 View Post
    Again, vaccination mandates are legal. George Washington enacted the first one. The Supreme Court has upheld them.

    Thankfully today's population wasn't around to downplay the dangers of spreading illness when we got rid of other diseases. Everyone still has to have mandated vaccines in order to go to school and college. Public health is more important than perceived individual freedom…as stated by the Supreme Court in 1905.
    Apples and Orange and Bananas...Context matters.

    #1 - Washington's mandate was for the troops alone. We had just declared Independence and were fighting THE premier world power at the time. By all accounts we were supposed to lose.

    George Washington and the First Mass Military Inoculation
    https://www.loc.gov/rr/scitech/GW&sm...oculation.html
    On the 6th of January 1777, George Washington wrote to Dr. William Shippen Jr., ordering him to inoculate all of the forces that came through Philadelphia. He explained that: "Necessity not only authorizes but seems to require the measure, for should the disorder infect the Army . . . we should have more to dread from it, than from the Sword of the Enemy." The urgency was real. Troops were scarce and encampments had turned into nomadic hospitals of festering disease, deterring further recruitment. Both Benedict Arnold and Benjamin Franklin, after surveying the havoc wreaked by Variola in the Canadian campaign, expressed fears that the virus would be the army's ultimate downfall. (Fenn 2001, 69)
    #2 - Smallpox was actually deadly, not a just a contributing factor.

    History of Smallpox
    https://www.cdc.gov/smallpox/history/history.html
    On average, 3 out of every 10 people who got it died.
    Smallpox
    https://www.fda.gov/vaccines-blood-b...cines/smallpox
    Two clinical forms of smallpox have been described. Variola major is the severe form of smallpox, with a more extensive rash and higher fever. It is also the most common form of smallpox. There are four types of variola major smallpox: ordinary (the most frequent); modified (mild and occurring in previously vaccinated persons); flat; and hemorrhagic. Historically, variola major has a case-fatality rate of about 30%. However, flat and hemorrhagic smallpox, which are uncommon types of smallpox, are usually fatal.
    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by King Kahn View Post
    And do you know how they were beaten….. VACCINATIONS.
    What is vaccinated again?

    Quote Originally Posted by UsernameMDM View Post
    "Full protection"? Does that mean "fully vaccinated"?



    Fauci Says It’s a Matter of ‘When, Not if’ the Definition of Fully Vaccinated Will Change
    https://www.usnews.com/news/health-n...ed-will-change
    Also:

    The Pandemic of the Vaccinated Is Here
    https://www.theatlantic.com/health/a...ctions/620953/
    The 60 percent of Americans who are fully vaccinated could soon find their lives looking very different. For much of the summer and fall, those who had received two Pfizer or Moderna doses or one Johnson & Johnson shot were told that they were essentially bulletproof, especially if they were young and healthy. But preliminary data from South Africa and Europe now suggest that two vaccine doses alone might still allow for frequent breakthrough infections and rapid spread of the disease—even if hospitalization and death remain unlikely.
    They (adults w/2 shots) will also pass the coronavirus more readily among themselves. Settings that might have previously seemed safe for vaccinated folks—say, a restaurant or performance venue that strictly checks vaccination status—could become fertile ground for transmission, because the people inside them are more likely to catch and spread the virus. Indeed, anecdotal reports already suggest that large indoor gatherings of fully vaccinated people can become super-spreader events in the age of Omicron.
    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by The.Idea.of.Evil View Post
    I appreciate you taking the time to respond to some of the different points I made in my post. So, lemme give the same courtesy back =)
    And I'll return the courtesy soon. Conversation and perspectives are important.
    Last edited by UsernameMDM; December 18, 2021 at 11:44pm.

  16. #116
    Master of New Adventures!
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    I'm a former Air Force search-and-rescue medic. Of course I know how they were beaten. That was the unspoken subtext of my post.

    Quote Originally Posted by King Kahn View Post
    And do you know how they were beaten….. VACCINATIONS.
    - - - Updated - - -

    You have to remember the state-of-the-art in tech was very different during polio and smallpox vaccine testing. What used to take years now takes days -- maybe hours -- thanks to the age we live in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikki Roxx View Post
    Yes indeed. Vaccinations. 100%.

    Vaccinations that had many years of clinical tests and trials, first, before being put out for mass consumption. Not just for purposes of safety, but also effectiveness. We didn't get them "when we needed/wanted them", we got them when they were ready and not before. Which unfortunately took a very long time.

    I can see why the current situation feels a little bit different, to some. Not all things are equal and the situations thus aren't directly comparable beyond the surface level. "We had a disease, and we eradicated it with vaccines." That much is 100% true, but there's a LOT left unsaid by that statement when comparing Then to Now.

    Just playing Devil's Advocate. I feel like the urgency of the current situation has perhaps expedited things by force. But I'm still a bit confused at how this one time, "magically", they were able to come up with a vaccine to combat the disease when traditionally that takes years, if not decades. This thing took everyone by surprise and yet they still had a shot available in less than a year. I won't push back too hard against anyone who thinks that sounds a bit off.

    Like if it came out ten years from now that "Yeah, it was actually a placebo, we just wanted people to have peace of mind and stop freaking about about going outside, so we gave them This just to tide them over while we developed a 'real' one," would anyone honestly be shocked? I wouldn't. Not saying that IS what they did but I'm saying it wouldn't shock me either.

    I have my own theories as to how they were able to produce an effective vaccine so quickly this one time, but I think they're probably too "offsides" for this section of the forum, so I won't get too deep into it. All I can say is, I think they know more than they let on about where the virus really came from, and in turn that knowledge helped them develop a vaccine for it a lot more quickly than they were able to develop ones for "truly" unknown diseases. That's what makes sense to me. Otherwise, I can't fathom how they managed to do it in roughly a year. Something's fuzzy there.

  17. #117
    Heroic Warrior UsernameMDM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rikki Roxx View Post
    Yes indeed. Vaccinations. 100%.

    Vaccinations that had many years of clinical tests and trials, first, before being put out for mass consumption. Not just for purposes of safety, but also effectiveness. We didn't get them "when we needed/wanted them", we got them when they were ready and not before. Which unfortunately took a very long time.
    Yep. And, as I have posted already in this thread, there is a risk in taking all these shots, that, to me, in my situation, isn't worth it.

    And then here is this new piece of information:

    CDC narrows use of J&J vaccine due to concerns about rare blood clots
    https://www.npr.org/sections/coronav...-covid-vaccine
    The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention accepted advice from a panel of experts to recommend the use of the Moderna and Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccines over the Johnson & Johnson jab, following growing concerns about rare blood clots.
    And this...this is strange.

    Refugees lack COVID shots because drugmakers fear lawsuits, documents show
    https://www.reuters.com/world/refuge...nts-2021-12-16
    BRUSSELS/BANGKOK, Dec 16 (Reuters) - Tens of millions of migrants may be denied COVID-19 vaccines from a global programme because some major manufacturers are worried about legal risks from harmful side effects, according to officials and internal documents from Gavi, the charity operating the programme, reviewed by Reuters.

  18. #118
    Master of Hosting Events! JohnnyC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UsernameMDM View Post
    The CDC's wording says those deaths aren't from cvd alone, and, as previously pointed out, the vast majority of those deaths with cvd as the last straw that broke the camels back. What's really lazy is people not taking care of themselves.
    I'm sorry, but I have to jump back in here. Do you just not comprehend anything you read, or do you just choose to dance around the actual facts and put garbage down in the form of words? No, it was not because of Covid alone, but because most of these people were elderly and/or had conditions which prevented their systems from being able to fight off the disease. How about this, though?... A friend of mine who was barely 40 had NO underlying conditions, worked out every week regularly and was outstandingly healthy, died from Covid. So, your theory of people not taking care of themselves.... how does it explain that, champ? It doesn't. Don't even try.

    NO ONE KNOWS HOW COVID WILL AFFECT THEM. Period. The vaccines have been decades in the making, they have been researched, they work and are safe. I have had 3 vaccines for Covid and so far I am not glowing nor have I grown any extra limbs. Anyone who truly understands how an mRNA vaccine works as explained by doctors and scientist knows there is nothing to fear.

    -Johnny C

  19. #119
    Heroic Warrior UsernameMDM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC View Post
    I'm sorry, but I have to jump back in here. Do you just not comprehend anything you read, or do you just choose to dance around the actual facts and put garbage down in the form of words? No, it was not because of Covid alone, but because most of these people were elderly and/or had conditions which prevented their systems from being able to fight off the disease. How about this, though?... A friend of mine who was barely 40 had NO underlying conditions, worked out every week regularly and was outstandingly healthy, died from Covid. So, your theory of people not taking care of themselves.... how does it explain that, champ? It doesn't. Don't even try.

    NO ONE KNOWS HOW COVID WILL AFFECT THEM. Period. The vaccines have been decades in the making, they have been researched, they work and are safe. I have had 3 vaccines for Covid and so far I am not glowing nor have I grown any extra limbs. Anyone who truly understands how an mRNA vaccine works as explained by doctors and scientist knows there is nothing to fear.

    -Johnny C
    And as I've said before, anecdotal evidence doesn't make good policy, and I can counter, as I have earlier, with the numbers, evidence of side-effects, the pros/cons, etc. And, as I have said earlier, the shots are not a 100% sure thing. They are not the magic talisman that people seemed to think they are. If you can't accept that, that's on you. If you want to take the shots, that's fine, it's you own personal choice that you made for yourself with the evidence you had. I am making that same decision with the evidence I have.

  20. #120
    Bring back Classics! The All American's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UsernameMDM View Post
    And as I've said before, anecdotal evidence doesn't make good policy, and I can counter, as I have earlier, with the numbers, evidence of side-effects, the pros/cons, etc. And, as I have said earlier, the shots are not a 100% sure thing. They are not the magic talisman that people seemed to think they are. If you can't accept that, that's on you. If you want to take the shots, that's fine, it's you own personal choice that you made for yourself with the evidence you had. I am making that same decision with the evidence I have.
    A lot of solid posts here, UsernameMDM.


    Quote Originally Posted by Heeeere's Olesker! View Post
    I'm a Vietnam era Air Force veteran and I served as an Aerospace Medic, highly trained in medicine and being lowered out of helicopters to assist wounded servicemen and service women. I never cared about anyone's politics, skin color, religion, lack of religion or gender identification. As a military man my job was to protect and aid all that I can in contact with and, by extension, protect and aid the citizens of the United States. Part of that job was -- said still is -- defending the rights of citizens to make their own choices and that's why, despite my being strongly in favor of vaccinations and boosters, I will always defend citizens' rights to make their own decisions.
    Thank you for saying this, Jack. And thank you for your service.

  21. #121
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    As someone who suffered both a mini-stroke, with two blood clots in my brain, and a minor heart attack, with a blood clot in an artery near my heart and then major endarterectomy surgery to remove a blockage in my left carotid artery, blood clots are something I'm very concerned about. Along with a laundry list of daily meds -- which have literally been a lifesaver -- I also take one low dose aspirin a day as a blood thinner so that helps to also reduce the risk I have of clotting from the vaccinations.

    I'm blessed with having an amazing medical team at Northwestern Hospital, which is the #1 hospital in Illinois, headed by Dr. Mark Eskandari, the Chief of Vascular Surgery. (Dr. Eskandari performed my endarterectomy and is the physican I regularly consult with.) Their considered opinion is that the risk of clotting I have from the vaccine is minimal in relationship to the health risk I would have if I contracted COVID-19. I'm certainly not a physician, but I'm wondering if taking a low dose aspirin daily would assist everyone else in offsetting the risk of clots from the vaccinations. I know there is a small risk of bleeding in the stomach from the aspirin regimen but, again, it's small in relationship to the potential benefit and possibly providing protection against clotting from vaccinations.

    And no, it's not true that the majority of people who get COVID are obese -- not even close:

    "More than 900,000 adult COVID-19 hospitalizations occurred in the United States between the beginning of the pandemic and November 18, 2020. Models estimate that 271,800 (30.2%) of these hospitalizations were attributed to obesity."

    https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/obe...-covid-19.html

    It is, however, true that individuals with underlying conditions, including obesity, have a six times higher risk of contracting COVID-19, which, in itself, is a pretty strong argument supporting the reasons to be vaccinated -- i.e., stopping those who at risk from contacting COVID-19 and, in return, spreading the beast.


    Quote Originally Posted by UsernameMDM View Post
    Yep. And, as I have posted already in this thread, there is a risk in taking all these shots, that, to me, in my situation, isn't worth it.

    And then here is this new piece of information:

    CDC narrows use of J&J vaccine due to concerns about rare blood clots
    https://www.npr.org/sections/coronav...-covid-vaccine


    And this...this is strange.

    Refugees lack COVID shots because drugmakers fear lawsuits, documents show
    https://www.reuters.com/world/refuge...nts-2021-12-16
    - - - Updated - - -

    With all due respect, so-called evidence can be a dicey thing. As Archimedes proposed, perhaps tongue-in-cheek, "Give me a lever long enough and a fulcrum on which to place it, and I shall move the world." In other words, we can take some evidence and skew it to the results we seek. This is particularly true of anecdotal 'evidence' and outliers.

    As someone who has gone through major medical challenges the last year and a half, I've thoroughly researched the vaccines and boosters. Moreover, I'm fortunate to enjoy a top medical team that I consult with regularly. Everything I've learned -- and just so you know I'm not skewing it, I'm also aware of the risks -- tells me that the risk from getting vaccinated and boostered pales in relationship to both the risk of contracting the beast for someone like me as well as the fact that getting vaccinated is the best path toward getting COVID-19 under control. While I absolutely continue to believe getting vaccinated or not getting vaccinated is a personal choice, almost all reputable and reliable evidence and studies point to the fact that the overwhelming percentage of people contracting COVID-19 and also those dying from it are unvaccinated.

    Quote Originally Posted by UsernameMDM View Post
    And as I've said before, anecdotal evidence doesn't make good policy, and I can counter, as I have earlier, with the numbers, evidence of side-effects, the pros/cons, etc. And, as I have said earlier, the shots are not a 100% sure thing. They are not the magic talisman that people seemed to think they are. If you can't accept that, that's on you. If you want to take the shots, that's fine, it's you own personal choice that you made for yourself with the evidence you had. I am making that same decision with the evidence I have.
    Last edited by Heeeere's Olesker!; December 18, 2021 at 05:17pm.

  22. #122
    Heroic Warrior UsernameMDM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heeeere's Olesker! View Post
    As someone who suffered both a mini-stroke, with two blood clots in my brain, and a minor heart attack, with a blood clot in an artery near my heart and then major endarterectomy surgery to remove a blockage in my left carotid artery, blood clots are something I'm very concerned about. Along with a laundry list of daily meds -- which have literally been a lifesaver -- I also take one low dose aspirin a day as a blood thinner so that helps to also reduce the risk I have of clotting from the vaccinations.

    I'm blessed with having an amazing medical team at Northwestern Hospital, which is the #1 hospital in Illinois, headed by Dr. Mark Eskandari, the Chief of Vascular Surgery. (Dr. Eskandari performed my endarterectomy and is the physican I regularly consult with.) Their considered opinion is that the risk of clotting I have from the vaccine is minimal in relationship to the health risk I would have if I contracted COVID-19. I'm certainly not a physician, but I'm wondering if taking a low dose aspirin daily would assist everyone else in offsetting the risk of clots from the vaccinations. I know there is a small risk of bleeding in the stomach from the aspirin regimen but, again, it's small in relationship to the potential benefit and possibly providing protection against clotting form vaccinations.
    Talk to your Drs, especially in the situation you are in. I can't offer any confident opinion on aspirin (normal, low dose, baby, etc) as related to shot induced blood clots.

    But aspirin DOES help a bit with cvd:

    Low-Dose Aspirin May Help Shield You From COVID-19
    https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/2021...rom-covid-19#1
    Among people who did get COVID-19, the time it took for SARS-CoV-2 PCR test results to go from positive to negative was significantly shorter among those who used aspirin, and the duration of their disease was two-three days shorter, depending upon preexisting health conditions.
    Aspirin in patients admitted to hospital with COVID-19 (RECOVERY): a randomised, controlled, open-label, platform trial
    https://www.thelancet.com/journals/l...825-0/fulltext
    Interpretation
    In patients hospitalised with COVID-19, aspirin was not associated with reductions in 28 day mortality or in the risk of progressing to invasive mechanical ventilation or death, but was associated with a small increase in the rate of being discharged alive within 28 days.
    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Heeeere's Olesker! View Post
    With all due respect, so-called evidence can be a dicey thing. As Archimedes proposed, perhaps tongue-in-cheek, "Give me a lever long enough and a fulcrum on which to place it, and I shall move the world." In other words, we can take some evidence and skew it to the results we seek. This is particularly true of anecdotal 'evidence' and outliers.
    All due respect back at you. But, that why I posted the numbers. I can offer anecdotal evidence, as I have before, to someone else's anecdotal evidence, and counter it 100%. That's why it's important to look at the whole picture.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heeeere's Olesker! View Post
    As someone who has gone through major medical challenges the last year and a half, I've thoroughly researched the vaccines and boosters. Moreover, I'm fortunate to enjoy a top medical team that I consult with regularly. Everything I've learned -- and just so you know I'm not skewing it, I'm also aware of the risks -- tells me that the risk from getting vaccinated and boostered pales in relationship to both the risk of contracting the beast for someone like me as well as the fact that getting vaccinated is the best path toward getting COVID-19 under control. While I absolutely continue to believe getting vaccinated or not getting vaccinated is a personal choice, almost all reputable and reliable evident and sorties points to the fact that the overwhelming percentage of people contracting COVID-19 and also those dying from it are unvaccinated.
    I do not disagree with any of that (except maybe the underlined part, I've posted links to the omnicron variant infected mostly people with the shots and immunity being best in previously infected individuals) and am glad you made that choice for yourself for your situation, with personal medical advice aimed at your personal medical history.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by The All American View Post
    A lot of solid posts here, UsernameMDM.


    Thank you sir! Just trying to post information for others to be able to make an informed personal decision without fear and outside pressure. Weighed the evidence and want to get the shot(s), go for it! Weighed the evidence and don't want to get the shots? OK! Either which way, make sure you are taking care of yourself spiritually, mentally, emotionally, and physically.

    All the cvd mess, whether from the actual virus, mandates, lockdowns, or 24 Hour news cycles, has taken it's toll.

  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by UsernameMDM View Post
    Apples and Orange and Bananas...Context matters.
    Yes, context matters. We're in a pandemic. Your bending reality by noting the CDC says deaths aren't from covid alone does no one any good. If not for covid, those people most likely WOULD still be alive. A person could have cancer, catch pneumonia, and die from the pneumonia from a weakened immune system. They'd still be alive if not for the pneumonia. Yes, a high percentage of people who have been vaccinated have caught Omicron…because it's more contagious. The point is, they're not hospitalized AND THE VACCINE IS DOING WHAT IT'S SUPPOSED TO DO. Vaccine mandates are totally legal and have been upheld by the Supreme Court…including fining people who refuse to be part of the solution. In the end, people ARE NOT allowed to indiscriminately spread disease in this country when it comes to public health. In the early days of the AIDS epidemic, people were fined and jailed for knowingly spreading HIV. Having said that, people in your type of situation compose an EXTREMELY small portion of the population. If everyone OUTSIDE of your small pool had put their big boy/girl pants on and gotten vaccinated, we'd be on our way out of this. As a society it's ALL OUR RESPONSIBILITY to protect one another. If you're able-bodied, get vaccinated. If you're in the extremely small pool of people who for health reasons can't, then you have to protect yourself from others and limit your interactions with people. Just like anyone with weakened immune systems have to do. BTW… WebMD ISN'T a reliable source for health information. There's been repeated investigations into their content.

    We've gotten to the point in the country where people somehow believe they have unlimited freedom…and that's not the case at all, never has been. The unfortunate truth is, people are selfish and seemingly ignorant of how science works. It'll be a few years before numbers come down to tolerable levels to no longer be considered in a pandemic. People will continue to not get vaccinated, allowing the virus to continually mutate. Stand-up citizens they're not.
    Last edited by chuc98; December 18, 2021 at 08:50pm.
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  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuc98 View Post
    Yes, context matters. We're in a pandemic.
    A pandemic with a less than 2% mortality rate in the USA. Again, the common strain of smallpox was historically estimated to be around 30%. If the mortality rates were remotely equal to that of smallpox at the time of Washington's mandate, I would be singing a completely different tune for sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by chuc98 View Post
    Your bending reality by noting the CDC says deaths aren't from covid alone does no one any good. If not for covid, those people most likely WOULD still be alive. A person could have cancer, catch pneumonia, and die from the pneumonia from a weakened immune system. They'd still be alive if not for the pneumonia.
    That's the point - sickness stacked on top of underlying conditions is deadly. If people worked at mitigated their conditions, that would make a world of difference. Again, as stated before, 90% of deaths have occurred in countries with high rates of obesity. Lets work on that. And, as I have said before, if you are someone in the compromised groups (age, underlying conditions, immunocompromised), it would be more than reasonable to at least consider the shot(s) and talk to a healthcare provider.

    Quote Originally Posted by chuc98 View Post
    Vaccine mandates are totally legal and have been upheld by the Supreme Court…including fining people who refuse to be part of the solution. In the end, people ARE NOT allowed to indiscriminately spread disease in this country when it comes to public health. In the early days of the AIDS epidemic, people were fined and jailed for knowingly spreading HIV.
    Knowing spreading a disease vs unknowingly is a huge difference. As pointed out in this thread, getting the shot(s) do not stop the spread. I wonder if the CDC should make a separate official class of of cases for those who got infected after getting the shot(s), and if that would make a difference in public perception. And, as I have said before, if you are sick or feeling sick you should stay home and take care of yourself. If you feel really bad, go to the Dr.

    And if you have a mild case or are asymptomatic, don't take up necessary resources!

    Our Most Reliable Pandemic Number Is Losing Meaning
    A new study suggests that almost half of those hospitalized with COVID-19 have mild or asymptomatic cases.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/health/a...eading/620062/
    The study found that from March 2020 through early January 2021—before vaccination was widespread, and before the Delta variant had arrived—the proportion of patients with mild or asymptomatic disease was 36 percent. From mid-January through the end of June 2021, however, that number rose to 48 percent. In other words, the study suggests that roughly half of all the hospitalized patients showing up on COVID-data dashboards in 2021 may have been admitted for another reason entirely, or had only a mild presentation of disease.
    This increase was even bigger for vaccinated hospital patients, of whom 57 percent had mild or asymptomatic disease. But unvaccinated patients have also been showing up with less severe symptoms, on average, than earlier in the pandemic: The study found that 45 percent of their cases were mild or asymptomatic since January 21. According to Shira Doron, an infectious-disease physician and hospital epidemiologist at Tufts Medical Center, in Boston, and one of the study’s co-authors, the latter finding may be explained by the fact that unvaccinated patients in the vaccine era tend to be a younger cohort who are less vulnerable to COVID and may be more likely to have been infected in the past.
    I wonder if that has anything to do with people scared out of their minds and overestimating the danger as shown in the previously linked gallup poll.

    Quote Originally Posted by chuc98 View Post
    Having said that, people in your type of situation compose an EXTREMELY small portion of the population. If everyone OUTSIDE of your small pool had put their big boy/girl pants on and gotten vaccinated, we'd be on our way out of this. As a society it's ALL OUR RESPONSIBILITY to protect one another. If you're able-bodied, get vaccinated.
    Do you have the data to back it up? See the previously posted graphs of from the CDC and compare the cases vs deaths. We want to see cases going up and deaths going down. Natural immunity is a good thing. And as previously pointed out, natural infections and natural infections + shot(s) are proven to be more effective that just shot(s).

    Quote Originally Posted by chuc98 View Post
    If you're in the extremely small pool of people who for health reasons can't, then you have to protect yourself from others and limit your interactions with people. Just like anyone with weakened immune systems have to do.
    This is reasonable.

    Quote Originally Posted by chuc98 View Post
    We've gotten to the point in the country where people somehow believe they have unlimited freedom…and that's not the case at all, never has been.
    If we're going to be talking Founding Fathers:

    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Benjamin Franklin
    Quote Originally Posted by chuc98 View Post
    The unfortunate truth is, people are selfish and seemingly ignorant of how science works. It'll be a few years before numbers come down to tolerable levels to no longer be considered in a pandemic. People will continue to not get vaccinated, allowing the virus to continually mutate. Stand-up citizens they're not.
    The unfortunate truth is people are scared out of their minds for a virus that has a less than 2% mortality rate. And, as pointed out previously in this thread, the virus variants are showing in people who have previously received the shot(s). Stand up citizen make informed decisions.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Just found this gem...

    BuzzFeed NYC Holiday Party Becomes a Covid Superspreader Event, Several Employees Infected: Insider
    https://www.mediaite.com/entertainme...ected-insider/

    Three BuzzFeed employees who tested positive following the party told Insider that they were vaccinated and received their booster shots prior to contracting Covid-19 at the event, and are experiencing mild symptoms.
    “BuzzFeed requires vaccinations for staffers, and partygoers had to present their vaccination cards to get into the event,” Perlberg reported, noting that CEO Jonah Peretti was in attendance. “Two days before the party, BuzzFeed updated its rules to require masks ‘unless you are actively eating or drinking.'”
    Last edited by UsernameMDM; December 19, 2021 at 09:10pm.

  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuc98 View Post
    The unfortunate truth is, people are selfish and seemingly ignorant of how science works.
    See this thread for examples. There are far too many posters with virology degrees from the university of propaganda websites.

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