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Thread: It's all the sorceress's fault (rant: revelations/filmation related)

  1. #1
    Court Magician Oldfan87's Avatar
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    It's all the sorceress's fault (rant: revelations/filmation related)

    You know, watching the revelations series, seeing how angry Teela was at all of the secrets and lies, I remembered watching the filmation cartoon when I was a kid, and being bothered by the actions of one character; one arrogant, condescending, powerful character with a goddess complex who was at the center of this web of deceit, and carried out morally questionable actions at her own whim, regardless of the morality of those decisions affected other people. Wither everybody likes Revelations or not, I see it's events being the fallout from the giant web of deceit one arrogant woman wove over Eternia because she thought the ends justified the means.

    I argue that in the filmation/Revelations canon, this is all the sorceress's fault.

    Think of all the unnecessary B.S. this so-called 'protector of grayskull carried out.All the mindwipes, commands that everyone lie and keep secrets at her orders. WHY was it necessary that Teela get her memory flushed after going through that whole quest to find out her past from the oracle, you feathered freak? Would her just knowing really have put grayskull or it's power or secrets in danger? Oh wait, this way you can wait until the moment you[re about to kick the bucket to dump the sorceress job on her, take her whole life in eternos away from her, and basically leave her in house arrest in castle grayskull for the rest of her life, and by keeping it a secret until it's time to pass the mantle, you'll be dead and won't have to deal with Teela's emotional resentment at having this little surprise dropped on her. Oh, and WHY exactly doesshe have to inherit your role? You took it on from Kodak Ungol to save your village from the horde, why can't you find an apprentice who'd be willing to take the job instead of the daughter you abandoned somebody else to raise?

    And then there is the sorcerers screwing with the royal family. How dare she tell Adam he can't reveal the secret to his parents? How dare she make him finish growing up with his father being ashamed of him, and Teela thinking he's a coward in battle? The secret identity is stupid for Adam anyway; 'your life will be in danger if the secret comes out, as will the lives of your loved ones'. Oh really, Teela Na? He's the prince of the entire kingdom, don't you think Villians like Skeletor and Count Marzo will be trying to kill him and his parents, anyway? Heck, how many times do villains attack the royal palace and Randor's family in plots that have noting to do with He-man and grayskull, anyway? And where would Prince Adam be safer with his identity fully known than in the royal palace, surrounded by royal guards and the heroic warriors? And don't get me started on the wiping the whole planet's memories of the horde Adora after her abduction? 'to save the pain of her loss'? bull-$%&!, bird lady! You had no right to take the memories of their princess from the people of Eternia? What about people who lost family members in the horde war, and can't even be allowed to remember how their family member really died. How many soldiers died defending eternia, and their families can't even remember the sacrifice they made? The sorceress had no right!

    Look, I'm not exactly a total fan of revelations, but I see the fallout occurring in the show as the comeuppance to Teela-na, the reaping of what she's sown for her god complex, and man-at-arms aiding and abetting that harpy's terrible decisions. And no, don't go defending this character saying 'it was a necessary sacrifice' and ' loved ones needed to be protected' because none of that is true... none of it. Adams secret, the secret of Teela's parentage, the Adora/horde war mind wipe, none of it was to protect anyone else, it was all for Teela-na's benefit, and no one else's.

    I have this strange feeling the sorceress will kick the bucket before Revelations is over, and Teela will take her place. If that is the case... good riddance, you old buzzard, Eternia and it's people will be better off without you. My only beef with Revelation was Teela's anger was misdirected at Adam, when her witch of a mother should have been the target! May Teela get over her anger, revert to her filmation personality, and be a better sorceress than you ever were!

    (please note, this rant is directed at a fictional character, the anger in the post is for sarcasm and humor purposes, and not to be taken seriously- though it does reflect my opinion opinion of the character as she has been portrayed. feel free to debate and give rebuttals)
    Last edited by Oldfan87; October 7, 2021 at 02:08am.

  2. #2
    Heroic Warrior ProteinNerd's Avatar
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    Love it!

    I think you’re right! We should burn that witch at the stake if she survives Revelation!

  3. #3
    Court Magician Oldfan87's Avatar
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    Thank you, this is the point I'm trying to make. This woman is a danger to everyone on all of eternia- if she could wipe her own daughters memories, do you think if an eterianian peasant accidentally caught he-man transforming or de-transforming, she'd have any qualms about giving the poor fool a magical lobotomy, and living him a drooling idiot who can't remember how to feed himself or go to the bathroom? I'd be scared to live on the same planet as her.

    I mostly don't hold Adam accountable for this- though the fact he just stood by and let Teela get mind-wiped, as a kid it was really my hero letting me down. I was just waiting for him to call her out on what she did right in front of him, and was disappointed he went along with it.

  4. #4
    Heroic Warrior Rikki Roxx's Avatar
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    To be fair.........

    She is pretty hot, though.

    ......That's all I got, right now.
    My matches, toy reviews, promos and more are on YouTube here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxr...awnHgDz1ceDcfA

  5. #5
    Heroic Warrior motogp_fanatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rikki Roxx View Post
    To be fair.........

    She is pretty hot, though.

    ......That's all I got, right now.
    Yes she is.

    Sent from my vivo 1718 using Tapatalk
    By the power of Grayskull!!!!

  6. #6
    Life is good Dice's Avatar
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    How about you try and walk a mile in her boots before you criticize!

    Be a single mom whom the courts decided your child gets to live with her father because your place is a creepy old haunted castle.

    Live alone in creepy castle for 20+ years with little social contact.

    Your only time out you have to spend as a bird. Guess what birds eat?!?! Bugs!!

    And then constantly being harassed and burgled by weirdos from the bad side of town.


    It's no wonder she's in the mental state she's in and constantly making bad decisions.
    "A fool always finds a greater fool to admire him."

  7. #7
    Call Your Champion Voodoo Magic's Avatar
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    He's so right about the Sorceress!!!




    So there's only one thing to do!




     
    Last edited by Voodoo Magic; October 7, 2021 at 09:51am.
    ~ CALL YOUR CHAMPION ~

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    Evil Warrior jibernish's Avatar
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    Maybe your post was just for fun, though it seemed more than that. Anyways, you are describing a person in a psychological state that is way more complex and sophisticated that then writing of the show allowed for, so it's not really fair to hold characters from that set of rules to real life. I would argue that the writers would have chosen her actions differently if they were writing with that type of complexity in mind.

    Facts and truth aren't equivalents.

    The Sorceress sacrificed her entire life to save the castle, and therefore, the universe. She performed the duties that powers wiser than herself required.

    I can see your points because we aren't made privy to what those duties are or even who those powers were, at least in Filmation. So you could interpret her actions as her as her acting out her own agenda.

    But I never got that sense, and I think that's just a hole in the writing and conceptualization of the series. She was a protector and advisor, she was selfless. She actually went against her own wishes in order to fulfill her duty. And yes, it hurt individual people, but that makes her sacrifice even greater because she was a loving person and it hurt her to hurt others. That was clear to me throughout the series. She suffered for her duty but she carried it out. Heroes suck it up, and all the characters in Filmation were heroes.

    I see what you are saying, but the God-complex was her actually following the will of the Gods of Eternia. If the writers had shown the will of the Elders and that she was following that, you could just shift the blame to them instead of her. But that wasn't the show we got. She was following the "will of God" and if you want to say she made it all up, that it was her own will, you take it in that direction if you want. I seriously doubt the writers would agree with you. I think they would tell you she was following the mysterious, unseen will of the powers that be, whoever they were. And they chose to leave it a mystery, to introduce the idea of faith into the series.

    I think a more realistic argument was that there were no higher powers and she was a crazy woman - but not a manipulative, selfish, meanspirited one. I don't think you can rightly make the argument that she was selfish and wanted to harm anyone for her own gain. But that's not the show we were given either. You can tear holes into any naive story if you look at it with a modern lense.
    Last edited by jibernish; October 7, 2021 at 12:17pm.

  9. #9
    Court Magician Oldfan87's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jibernish View Post
    Maybe your post was just for fun, though it seemed more than that. Anyways, you are describing a person in a psychological state that is way more complex and sophisticated that then writing of the show allowed for, so it's not really fair to hold characters from that set of rules to real life. I would argue that the writers would have chosen her actions differently if they were writing with that type of complexity in mind.

    Facts and truth aren't equivalents.

    The Sorceress sacrificed her entire life to save the castle, and therefore, the universe. She performed the duties that powers wiser than herself required.

    I can see your points because we aren't made privy to what those duties are or even who those powers were, at least in Filmation. So you could interpret her actions as her as her acting out her own agenda.

    But I never got that sense, and I think that's just a hole in the writing and conceptualization of the series. She was a protector and advisor, she was selfless. She actually went against her own wishes in order to fulfill her duty. And yes, it hurt individual people, but that makes her sacrifice even greater because she was a loving person and it hurt her to hurt others. That was clear to me throughout the series. She suffered for her duty but she carried it out. Heroes suck it up, and all the characters in Filmation were heroes.

    I see what you are saying, but the God-complex was her actually following the will of the Gods of Eternia. If the writers had shown the will of the Elders and that she was following that, you could just shift the blame to them instead of her. But that wasn't the show we got. She was following the "will of God" and if you want to say she made it all up, that it was her own will, you take it in that direction if you want. I seriously doubt the writers would agree with you. I think they would tell you she was following the mysterious, unseen will of the powers that be, whoever they were. And they chose to leave it a mystery, to introduce the idea of faith into the series.

    I think a more realistic argument was that there were no higher powers and she was a crazy woman - but not a manipulative, selfish, mean spirited one. I don't think you can rightly make the argument that she was selfish and wanted to harm anyone for her own gain. But that's not the show we were given either. You can tear holes into any naive story if you look at it with a modern lense.
    Yes, the extreme ranting was just for humorous purposes, no matter how it may seem to anyone. But my arguments on the issue still stand. The way Filmation sorceress was written makes this a very valid interpretation of this. And no, it's not a situation of ' the gods and the ancients told me to do these things'. We've seen the gods and ancients in the show, we know they exist- they never order teela-na to do anything I brought up- Granamyr didn't order her to do it, Zodac didn't order her to do any it, even the spirit of Grayskull asks her about missing her daughter in one episode, and questions her decisions in regards to her decisions about her daughter.

    Filmation presents the criticisms I made as being her decisions, her judgement calls. evelations is proving my point- and in revelations her poor decisions, lies, and deceptions are coming home to roost in the form of Teela's anger and King Randor's rage. Revelations whole story is that these lies and deceptions were wrong, and I think the gods of eternia/the wise are trusting Teela-na's decisions are best. and the argument of Eternia's morality being different than ours does not hold- Eternia is presented in the show having 20th century American views on morality, slavery, and equality in many episodes of the show. Basically, there are higher powers in the show, and from what we see they are not the ones ordering the sorceress to make these decisions

    And thisargument only holds towards the filmation version- Minicomic sorceress didn't tell teela about her being her 'clone', but she didn't hide it when Skeletor revealed the fact,nor did she wipe teela's memory. 200X sorceress kept the parentage and secret identity lies, but at least she didn't wipe anyone's memories, and it actually seemed she would just deal with it if the secrets came out. Only filmation pushes these mistakes made by the sorceress to the point where it's morally reprehensible. From what we are shown, Teela-na is making these choices on her own, based on what she thinks is best.
    Last edited by Oldfan87; October 7, 2021 at 03:10pm.

  10. #10
    Evil Warrior jibernish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldfan87 View Post
    Yes, the extreme ranting was just for humorous purposes, no matter how it may seem to anyone. But my arguments on the issue still stand. The way Filmation sorceress was written makes this a very valid interpretation of this. And no, it's not a situation of ' the gods and the ancients told me to do these things'. We've seen the gods and ancients in the show, we know they exist- they never order teela-na to do anything I brought up- Granamyr didn't order her to do it, Zodac didn't order her to do any it, even the spirit of Grayskull asks her about missing her daughter in one episode, and questions her decisions in regards to her decisions about her daughter.

    Filmation presents the criticisms I made as being her decisions, her judgement calls. evelations is proving my point- and in revelations her poor decisions, lies, and deceptions are coming home to roost in the form of Teela's anger and King Randor's rage. Revelations whole story is that these lies and deceptions were wrong, and I think the gods of eternia/the wise are trusting Teela-na's decisions are best. and the argument of Eternia's morality being different than ours does not hold- Eternia is presented in the show having 20th century American views on morality, slavery, and equality in many episodes of the show. Basically, there are higher powers in the show, and from what we see they are not the ones ordering the sorceress to make these decisions

    And thisargument only holds towards the filmation version- Minicomic sorceress didn't tell teela about her being her 'clone', but she didn't hide it when Skeletor revealed the fact,nor did she wipe teela's memory. 200X sorceress kept the parentage and secret identity lies, but at least she didn't wipe anyone's memories, and it actually seemed she would just deal with it if the secrets came out. Only filmation pushes these mistakes made by the sorceress to the point where it's morally reprehensible. From what we are shown, Teela-na is making these choices on her own, based on what she thinks is best.
    Do you remember which episodes you are talking about?

    My point was that the Elders (or whoever created Castle Grayskull and placed the power inside it (if that's even what happened in Filmation - I don't recall it ever being explained) would have created the 'rules.' I don't remember ever seeing any of that in Filmation. And I just watched the entire run this year, though my memory isn't the best - I could just be overlooking something. So if you have any specifics, I'd be interested in reevaluating my opinion based on that.

    I still think it's a shortcoming in the writing. If everything you mentioned had happened in a more realistic, more psychologically realized world, I'd be more inclined to agree with you. If my mother, for example, had done those things, I'd be pretty upset with her too. However, if I found out God told her to make these decisions or the world would be in danger (given God exists), if my mother had always acted with kindness, sacrificed her own life and happiness to do this duty, had always tried to help me and others around her and had never shown me anger, hostility, etc, I would be proud of her.

    I take it for granted - and I think the writers would agree - that she did what was necessary to keep the universe safe. That was basically the entire premise of the show. The had to defend the secrets of Castle Grayskull from the evil forces of Skeletor. That is what the show was about at its core, as stated at the beginning of every episode. And so that is more important than Teela or Adam's or Randor's feelings.

    I don't grant you this: From what we are shown, Teela-na is making these choices on her own, based on what she thinks is best.

    Again, I could be overlooking something. Honestly if you can remember what episodes you saw this in, or even who the gods and ancients are that you mentioned, I would very much like to watch those again. Otherwise I think we are both assuming something - you that she made all the decisions herself because she is a selfish, horrible person, me that the powers that created Grayskull and have kept it safe gave her the directives, even if she maybe didn't do everything perfectly, even if there was some collateral damage.

    But even then, I just think it's the writing. She was clearly intended to be good. If you see her as bad, and for the reasons you stated, it's just that the writing wasn't sophisticated enough to hold up to that level of scrutiny. Those weren't the rules that Filmation Eternia was set up under. I think it's fun to consider stuff like this. Maybe even Kevin Smith thought like that when he and his crew came up with the idea for MOTUR. But you can rip any story apart if you dive in deep enough. You can turn any hero into a villain or villain into a hero.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I could make a case for any hero in the show to be a horrible person.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldfan87 View Post
    And then there is the sorcerers screwing with the royal family. How dare she tell Adam he can't reveal the secret to his parents? How dare she make him finish growing up with his father being ashamed of him, and Teela thinking he's a coward in battle? The secret identity is stupid for Adam anyway; 'your life will be in danger if the secret comes out, as will the lives of your loved ones'. Oh really, Teela Na? He's the prince of the entire kingdom, don't you think Villians like Skeletor and Count Marzo will be trying to kill him and his parents, anyway? Heck, how many times do villains attack the royal palace and Randor's family in plots that have noting to do with He-man and grayskull, anyway? And where would Prince Adam be safer with his identity fully known than in the royal palace, surrounded by royal guards and the heroic warriors?
    I've seen this argument before: that there's no need to keep the identity secret because a prince and his family are targets anyways.

    Let's say 100 different parties in the universe would be interested in conquering Randor's kingdom. They'd mostly be local, and they would mostly be of average power, if measured across the universe.

    But there would be many many times that number of parties who would want to conquer Castle Grayskull and have that power for themselves because it would give them power over the entire universe. So that right there is a reason to keep He-Man's identity a secret. Because your more powerful villains aren't even going to bother with taking over some run of the mill kingdom on some planet halfway across the galaxy. For example, Thanos wouldn't bother with Eternia unless one of the infinity stones were there. But if Thanos knew the defender of the last infinity stone were in Eternos Palace, he'd be there with half his army, and he'd send the other half after the stone, ie, Grayskull.

    And so would Darkseid. And Emperor Palpatine. And Hiss, and Hordak, and Skeletor... All the bigget baddies from all over the universe would be there. Grayskull would fall because even if He-Man could defend against Thanos, he couldn't fend off attacks against them all at once. He couldn't defend Grayskull and his family at the same time - they would also be attacked and probably killed, if not to get to He-Man to leave Grayskull and help them, but to keep him from fully focusing on defending the Castle.

    In this admittedly silly scenario where the power of the universe is concentrated in one place, and that power can be taken somehow, it does make sense to keep those who defend it hidden. In that way the defender and his family can't be attacked on one front and then the castle attacked on another. Or so that their loved ones can't be used against them.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I thought of an example to illustrate my point that the writers would have written her actions differently if they had intended the story to be as psychologically sophisticated as would be necessary to evaluate it at the level mentioned in the original post:

    If you make the show more realistic psychologically, you have to make it more realistic in terms of violence and consequences. Skeletor would be killing many, many people. There would be death and horrible suffering all over Eternia. If you went up to Teela and gave her the choice, you can know your mother but there is a chance thousands of people will die, she would choose to not know her mother. Because Teela is a hero. Heroes don't put themselves first.

    And Adam actually did the heroic thing - he is given the choice every day - he gave up having the approval of his father because he knew it was more important to keep the universe safe. There is no scene where she had to talk Adam into it against his will. He agreed, based on the logic inherent in the show. MAA agreed too. He's wise and certainly thinks for himself. Orko, well....

    If you want to say the entire premise of the show is dumb, well ok. But that's the premise of the show. That Grayskull is safer with the secrets being kept. Just look at the real world. Terrorism hasn't been stamped out in part because it's not centralized. If the power was centralized like Castle Grayskull, then your best defense is to keep it hidden. If the source of your power is known, and all held in one place, good luck defending it. It's going to be much harder than if the power is spread out in at least 2 places and one of those places is unknown.
    Last edited by jibernish; October 7, 2021 at 05:09pm.

  11. #11
    Court Magician Oldfan87's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jibernish View Post
    Do you remember which episodes you are talking about?

    My point was that the Elders (or whoever created Castle Grayskull and placed the power inside it (if that's even what happened in Filmation - I don't recall it ever being explained) would have created the 'rules.' I don't remember ever seeing any of that in Filmation. And I just watched the entire run this year, though my memory isn't the best - I could just be overlooking something. So if you have any specifics, I'd be interested in reevaluating my opinion based on that.

    I still think it's a shortcoming in the writing. If everything you mentioned had happened in a more realistic, more psychologically realized world, I'd be more inclined to agree with you. If my mother, for example, had done those things, I'd be pretty upset with her too. However, if I found out God told her to make these decisions or the world would be in danger (given God exists), if my mother had always acted with kindness, sacrificed her own life and happiness to do this duty, had always tried to help me and others around her and had never shown me anger, hostility, etc, I would be proud of her.

    I take it for granted - and I think the writers would agree - that she did what was necessary to keep the universe safe. That was basically the entire premise of the show. The had to defend the secrets of Castle Grayskull from the evil forces of Skeletor. That is what the show was about at its core, as stated at the beginning of every episode. And so that is more important than Teela or Adam's or Randor's feelings.

    I don't grant you this: From what we are shown, Teela-na is making these choices on her own, based on what she thinks is best.

    Again, I could be overlooking something. Honestly if you can remember what episodes you saw this in, or even who the gods and ancients are that you mentioned, I would very much like to watch those again. Otherwise I think we are both assuming something - you that she made all the decisions herself because she is a selfish, horrible person, me that the powers that created Grayskull and have kept it safe gave her the directives, even if she maybe didn't do everything perfectly, even if there was some collateral damage.

    But even then, I just think it's the writing. She was clearly intended to be good. If you see her as bad, and for the reasons you stated, it's just that the writing wasn't sophisticated enough to hold up to that level of scrutiny. Those weren't the rules that Filmation Eternia was set up under. I think it's fun to consider stuff like this. Maybe even Kevin Smith thought like that when he and his crew came up with the idea for MOTUR. But you can rip any story apart if you dive in deep enough. You can turn any hero into a villain or villain into a hero.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I could make a case for any hero in the show to be a horrible person.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I've seen this argument before: that there's no need to keep the identity secret because a prince and his family are targets anyways.

    Let's say 100 different parties in the universe would be interested in conquering Randor's kingdom. They'd mostly be local, and they would mostly be of average power, if measured across the universe.

    But there would be many many times that number of parties who would want to conquer Castle Grayskull and have that power for themselves because it would give them power over the entire universe. So that right there is a reason to keep He-Man's identity a secret. Because your more powerful villains aren't even going to bother with taking over some run of the mill kingdom on some planet halfway across the galaxy. For example, Thanos wouldn't bother with Eternia unless one of the infinity stones were there. But if Thanos knew the defender of the last infinity stone were in Eternos Palace, he'd be there with half his army, and he'd send the other half after the stone, ie, Grayskull.

    And so would Darkseid. And Emperor Palpatine. And Hiss, and Hordak, and Skeletor... All the bigget baddies from all over the universe would be there. Grayskull would fall because even if He-Man could defend against Thanos, he couldn't fend off attacks against them all at once. He couldn't defend Grayskull and his family at the same time - they would also be attacked and probably killed, if not to get to He-Man to leave Grayskull and help them, but to keep him from fully focusing on defending the Castle.

    In this admittedly silly scenario where the power of the universe is concentrated in one place, and that power can be taken somehow, it does make sense to keep those who defend it hidden. In that way the defender and his family can't be attacked on one front and then the castle attacked on another. Or so that their loved ones can't be used against them.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I thought of an example to illustrate my point that the writers would have written her actions differently if they had intended the story to be as psychologically sophisticated as would be necessary to evaluate it at the level mentioned in the original post:

    If you make the show more realistic psychologically, you have to make it more realistic in terms of violence and consequences. Skeletor would be killing many, many people. There would be death and horrible suffering all over Eternia. If you went up to Teela and gave her the choice, you can know your mother but there is a chance thousands of people will die, she would choose to not know her mother. Because Teela is a hero. Heroes don't put themselves first.

    And Adam actually did the heroic thing - he is given the choice every day - he gave up having the approval of his father because he knew it was more important to keep the universe safe. There is no scene where she had to talk Adam into it against his will. He agreed, based on the logic inherent in the show. MAA agreed too. He's wise and certainly thinks for himself. Orko, well....

    If you want to say the entire premise of the show is dumb, well ok. But that's the premise of the show. That Grayskull is safer with the secrets being kept. Just look at the real world. Terrorism hasn't been stamped out in part because it's not centralized. If the power was centralized like Castle Grayskull, then your best defense is to keep it hidden. If the source of your power is known, and all held in one place, good luck defending it. It's going to be much harder than if the power is spread out in at least 2 places and one of those places is unknown.
    Filmation doesn't directly reference 'gods' per say, but it mentions and show beings who could hold the position and authority of 'gods'; the ancient ones, Zodak, Granamyr, and the spirit of Grayskull. We saw episodes that definitely show demons exist- the devil himself appearing in 'the wizard of stone mountain' asthe 'spirit of evil', the eldritch horrors Sh'Gora and the sleeping beast Shotoki summoned. If the demons and the devil himself exist, it is a given that the 'gods' exist as well. As to an episode where one of these 'powerful entities', the spirit of grayskull, comments Teela-na misses her daughter when they are watching her on a screen. And he says noting when the sorceress goes to Teela. And the idea that it HAS to be Teela as the next sorceress, as 'decreed by the gods', makes no sense because Teela's direct predecessor, Kodak Ungol, was in no way related to her, so the show gives no indication that the position passes by bloodline only, and even suggests the opposite in 'the origin of the sorceress'.

    There's also the point that, if you do consider revelation as a sequel to Filmation (not everyone does), the whole point of the series is that the lies and deceptions- so-called sacrifices' were wrong, they weren't heroic, and now it's blowing up in Adam, Man-at-arms, and the sorceress's faces with Teela's reaction to even learning just adam's secret. The chain of events set off by all these secrets and mindwipes has not led to keeping grayskull and eternia safe- it has led to Skeletor having the power. And all new MOTU incarnations are tossing the secrets and mindwipes out the door, discarding them as unnecessary, and letting Teela choose her role as sorceress, rather than having it foist upon her. As for the eternos being safe with his I.D. being public- her could at least be allowed to tell Randor, marlena, and Teela. And if the argument is made 'oh, they could be tortured or minds magically read to get the secret', the same could be said of Orko, man-at arms, or cringer; if the king, queen and teela knowing is a danger, than so is those three's knowledge of the secret Identity. (thank goodness the queen secretly already knew).

    Anyway, this argument will only go in circles, as I can't prove from show evidence Teela-Na made these choices herself, and you can't prove from show evidence that she was ordered to do so from the higher powers of eternia, and I don't see any of her choices, the mind wipes or secrets, to be necessary heroic scarifces, so we'll just have to agree to disagree.
    Last edited by Oldfan87; October 7, 2021 at 06:08pm.

  12. #12
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    1) Children are a weakness. The defender of Grayskull can't have weakness. I always loved Air Force One with Harrison Ford who absolutely refused to negotiate with the terrorists. Could not. Would not. Until they put a gun to his kids head and he immediately caved and offered to do whatever they asked.

    Skeletor is NOT above holding the Havoc Staff to Teela's head if Sorceress doesn't lower the Jawbridge... and she would do it. That's a secret that absolutely CAN not get out.


    2) I kind of agree about the 'protecting your family' garbage when they are already the #1 target for kidnappings in Eternia. However, what is NOT common knowledge and never CAN be... is that after you capture Adam if you take his sword He-man is gone forever. Or that while Adam is asleep the sword is hiding behind the artwork. The secret to stopping He-man is a simple smash and grab that Webstor or Ninjor can do with their eyes closed.

    MAYBE more people could be told something... but the more that do, the more EVERYONE will find out. I actaully consider the biggest flaw with the sorceress is that she didn't mindwipe Orko. He ould NEVER be trusted to keep his mouth shut.


    Which is my personal headcanon for Teela. She's a notortious gossip who can't keep a secret to save her life. Whatever else happens... Never tell Teela ANYTHING.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldfan87 View Post

    There's also the point that, if you do consider revelation as a sequel to Filmation (not everyone does), the whole point of the series is that the lies and deceptions- so-called sacrifices' were wrong, they weren't heroic, and now it's blowing up in Adam, Man-at-arms, and the sorceress's faces with Teela's reaction to even learning just adam's secret. The chain of events set off by all these secrets and mindwipes has not led to keeping grayskull and eternia safe- it has led to Skeletor having the power.
    I didn't mind Revelation. Not great... but I enjoyed it. EXCEPT for Teela's overblown reaction. She was captain of the Guard for heaven's sake. She didn't understand the concpet that MAYBE she doesn't know EVERYTHING? State Secrets? Need to Know basis? As Captain of the Guard surely SHE had some secrets she wasn't allowed to tell everyone just because they were best friends? Heck she threw a temper tantrum cut off her dad, abandoned her position of authority and didn't even find out about her mom yet!!

    It was REALLLLY childish for the supposed 'mature' one.

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    Heroic Warrior davelove81's Avatar
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    Just regarding the secret identity in the old media ,i think about this way . No villain knows who he man is , where he lives , or when he'll show up next . If they all know Adam is he man , they'd simply wait till Adam has " royal duties" in veridas or avion or somewhere and attack when he's away . So the secret serves to keep the " threat" of he man alive, that's important as well as giving Adam a little bit of downtime perhaps?

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    Evil Warrior jibernish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldfan87 View Post
    Filmation doesn't directly reference 'gods' per say, but it mentions and show beings who could hold the position and authority of 'gods'; the ancient ones, Zodak, Granamyr, and the spirit of Grayskull. We saw episodes that definitely show demons exist- the devil himself appearing in 'the wizard of stone mountain' asthe 'spirit of evil', the eldritch horrors Sh'Gora and the sleeping beast Shotoki summoned. If the demons and the devil himself exist, it is a given that the 'gods' exist as well. As to an episode where one of these 'powerful entities', the spirit of grayskull, comments Teela-na misses her daughter when they are watching her on a screen. And he says noting when the sorceress goes to Teela. And the idea that it HAS to be Teela as the next sorceress, as 'decreed by the gods', makes no sense because Teela's direct predecessor, Kodak Ungol, was in no way related to her, so the show gives no indication that the position passes by bloodline only, and even suggests the opposite in 'the origin of the sorceress'.

    There's also the point that, if you do consider revelation as a sequel to Filmation (not everyone does), the whole point of the series is that the lies and deceptions- so-called sacrifices' were wrong, they weren't heroic, and now it's blowing up in Adam, Man-at-arms, and the sorceress's faces with Teela's reaction to even learning just adam's secret. The chain of events set off by all these secrets and mindwipes has not led to keeping grayskull and eternia safe- it has led to Skeletor having the power. And all new MOTU incarnations are tossing the secrets and mindwipes out the door, discarding them as unnecessary, and letting Teela choose her role as sorceress, rather than having it foist upon her. As for the eternos being safe with his I.D. being public- her could at least be allowed to tell Randor, marlena, and Teela. And if the argument is made 'oh, they could be tortured or minds magically read to get the secret', the same could be said of Orko, man-at arms, or cringer; if the king, queen and teela knowing is a danger, than so is those three's knowledge of the secret Identity. (thank goodness the queen secretly already knew).

    Anyway, this argument will only go in circles, as I can't prove from show evidence Teela-Na made these choices herself, and you can't prove from show evidence that she was ordered to do so from the higher powers of eternia, and I don't see any of her choices, the mind wipes or secrets, to be necessary heroic scarifces, so we'll just have to agree to disagree.
    Yeah we can agree to disagree. I certainly don't want to change your mind. I actually like that you started the thread because it made me think about some things I hadn't really considered deeply. And thanks for mentioning all the higher powers. I remember them, but still not seeing where those who tasked her with defending grayskull said anything either way.

    I just discard MOTUR entirely as a sequel to Filmation. This discussion and your point clarified it for me even further. I'm just not interested at all in any storyline that is predicated on the notion that the heroic actions of the heroes I grew up loving were somehow bad. I mean I think it would have been ok to show that they had consequences, but well I don't really want to get into that argument here.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by davelove81 View Post
    Just regarding the secret identity in the old media ,i think about this way . No villain knows who he man is , where he lives , or when he'll show up next . If they all know Adam is he man , they'd simply wait till Adam has " royal duties" in veridas or avion or somewhere and attack when he's away . So the secret serves to keep the " threat" of he man alive, that's important as well as giving Adam a little bit of downtime perhaps?

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    Definitely.

    Its like, the bank has $1 million. Joe is the security guard at the bank. And Joe has $5k at home. How many robbers would rob Joe at home for $5k? Some, but not all. Now if everyone knew that Joe was the security guard for the bank, and taking him out at home would give them an easy shot at the banks million, every robber would be interested in taking out Joe and anyone close to him they could use to keep him away from the bank. They could go after Joe at home and send others for the bank. They could team up with other robbers. And even if Joe could defend both at once, somehow, he'd get super worn out fighting every single robber because they all want that cash.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldfan87 View Post
    You know, watching the revelations series, seeing how angry Teela was at all of the secrets and lies, I remembered watching the filmation cartoon when I was a kid, and being bothered by the actions of one character; one arrogant, condescending, powerful character with a goddess complex who was at the center of this web of deceit, and carried out morally questionable actions at her own whim, regardless of the morality of those decisions affected other people. Wither everybody likes Revelations or not, I see it's events being the fallout from the giant web of deceit one arrogant woman wove over Eternia because she thought the ends justified the means.

    I argue that in the filmation/Revelations canon, this is all the sorceress's fault.

    Think of all the unnecessary B.S. this so-called 'protector of grayskull carried out.All the mindwipes, commands that everyone lie and keep secrets at her orders. WHY was it necessary that Teela get her memory flushed after going through that whole quest to find out her past from the oracle, you feathered freak? Would her just knowing really have put grayskull or it's power or secrets in danger? Oh wait, this way you can wait until the moment you[re about to kick the bucket to dump the sorceress job on her, take her whole life in eternos away from her, and basically leave her in house arrest in castle grayskull for the rest of her life, and by keeping it a secret until it's time to pass the mantle, you'll be dead and won't have to deal with Teela's emotional resentment at having this little surprise dropped on her. Oh, and WHY exactly doesshe have to inherit your role? You took it on from Kodak Ungol to save your village from the horde, why can't you find an apprentice who'd be willing to take the job instead of the daughter you abandoned somebody else to raise?

    And then there is the sorcerers screwing with the royal family. How dare she tell Adam he can't reveal the secret to his parents? How dare she make him finish growing up with his father being ashamed of him, and Teela thinking he's a coward in battle? The secret identity is stupid for Adam anyway; 'your life will be in danger if the secret comes out, as will the lives of your loved ones'. Oh really, Teela Na? He's the prince of the entire kingdom, don't you think Villians like Skeletor and Count Marzo will be trying to kill him and his parents, anyway? Heck, how many times do villains attack the royal palace and Randor's family in plots that have noting to do with He-man and grayskull, anyway? And where would Prince Adam be safer with his identity fully known than in the royal palace, surrounded by royal guards and the heroic warriors? And don't get me started on the wiping the whole planet's memories of the horde Adora after her abduction? 'to save the pain of her loss'? bull-$%&!, bird lady! You had no right to take the memories of their princess from the people of Eternia? What about people who lost family members in the horde war, and can't even be allowed to remember how their family member really died. How many soldiers died defending eternia, and their families can't even remember the sacrifice they made? The sorceress had no right!

    Look, I'm not exactly a total fan of revelations, but I see the fallout occurring in the show as the comeuppance to Teela-na, the reaping of what she's sown for her god complex, and man-at-arms aiding and abetting that harpy's terrible decisions. And no, don't go defending this character saying 'it was a necessary sacrifice' and ' loved ones needed to be protected' because none of that is true... none of it. Adams secret, the secret of Teela's parentage, the Adora/horde war mind wipe, none of it was to protect anyone else, it was all for Teela-na's benefit, and no one else's.

    I have this strange feeling the sorceress will kick the bucket before Revelations is over, and Teela will take her place. If that is the case... good riddance, you old buzzard, Eternia and it's people will be better off without you. My only beef with Revelation was Teela's anger was misdirected at Adam, when her witch of a mother should have been the target! May Teela get over her anger, revert to her filmation personality, and be a better sorceress than you ever were!

    (please note, this rant is directed at a fictional character, the anger in the post is for sarcasm and humor purposes, and not to be taken seriously- though it does reflect my opinion opinion of the character as she has been portrayed. feel free to debate and give rebuttals)
    Wow, thanks for bringing up this topic. This is something I have thought about before, but not to the degree that you have laid out here, which has definitely made me think. Now I personally don't believe the Sorceress did any of these out of malice or hubris, but that she truly believed what she did was the best for everyone. She just happened to be wrong IMHO. I agree that He-Man's true identity being secret was unnecessary because, after his parents. Adam was an obstacle for Skeletor truly ruling Eternia because he was the heir to the throne, so yes he and his family would always be a target for Skeletor, regardless if they knew his secret. And even if you wanted to keep is secret from Skeletor and his minions, it doesn't make any sense to keep it secret from Teela, the person who's job is too protect you. If Orko knows the secret, certainly Teela could too. That's why in Revelation I had no problem with her being upset. It's like she didn't know Adam at all, and with Adam being dead, she couldn't even confront him about it, so she took it out on everyone else. As an aside, it looks like Mattel is moving on from the Adam being He-Man a secret, at elast for the long-term. The CGI series doesn't have that and the DC Comics ditched that plot point too. And Revelation is dealing directly with consequence of that secret. Even SPOP dropped that the whole Adora/She-Ra secret identity I think it worked out quite well for that show.

    As for the secret of Teela being the Sorceress' daughter, I agree after Teela found out the truth and having her mind wiped by the Sorceress is a bit suspect in terms of behavior. I do hope that Revelations ends with Teela embracing her destiny, similar to what happened in the DC Comics series. And then we can finally get a Teela as Sorceress toy that we never got in Classics!

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by He-Metayer View Post
    As for the secret of Teela being the Sorceress' daughter, I agree after Teela found out the truth and having her mind wiped by the Sorceress is a bit suspect in terms of behavior. I do hope that Revelations ends with Teela embracing her destiny, similar to what happened in the DC Comics series. And then we can finally get a Teela as Sorceress toy that we never got in Classics!
    I have mixed feelings on that too.

    1) I've heard it said nobody wants to know their 'destiny'. If they already know how the story ends... what's the point of life. So yeah, on that note Teela was going to enjoy life on a day to day basis a lot better without knowing her 'destiny' was to get locked in a castle forever... Let her live in ignorance.

    2) that said... WHY was she destined to live in the castle?!? 'Sorceress' wasn't a heredity position. We saw how Teela-na was recruited and she wasn't related to the previous sorceress. There's no reason that she couldn't recruit anyone else to serve that position.

  17. #17
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    "The secret identity is stupid for Adam"

    Movie HM nods in agreement


    "Your only time out you have to spend as a bird. Guess what birds eat?!?! Bugs!!"

    I dont wanna know what TJ eats

    "I've heard it said nobody wants to know their 'destiny'. If they already know how the story ends... what's the point of life"

    Well Elvis likely knew it wouldnt end well , certainly in 1976-77 when he was headed down (he had 4 overdoses in '73 alone so there were warning signs many yrs before he passed)
    Last edited by Wonder Bread He-Man; October 8, 2021 at 06:03am.
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  18. #18
    Heroic Warrior Lokus's Avatar
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    WHY was it necessary that Teela get her memory flushed after going through that whole quest to find out her past from the oracle,
    Same reason you dont drag your child to a slaughterhouse to show them where meat comes from . You want to protect them from harsh reality as long as possible . Yes a Sorceress of Grayskull is a living sacrifice . Its possible that Sorceress was never supposed to fall inlove and have baby Teela but life happened .


    How dare she tell Adam he can't reveal the secret to his parents? How dare she make him finish growing up with his father being ashamed of him,
    Another sacrifice but compared to what Sorceress endures this is rather easy . It also protects the secret of the Power Sword .

    Skeletor and Evil Lynn and any magic user can summon a portal . Making portals is stupid easy for Eternian Wizards . Someone threatens you , make a portal and kill em then escape back through. No army can protect anyone from that .

    We saw what happened when Fabulous secrets were revealed to Skeletor the day he found out the truth in revelation land . He stuck a pointy object in Adam,s stomach and Transformed into the most powerful skull in the universe ......punching tv screen.


    You had no right to take the memories of their princess from the people of Eternia? What about people who lost family members in the horde war, and can't even be allowed to remember how their family member really died. How many soldiers died defending eternia, and their families can't even remember the sacrifice they made? The sorceress had no right!
    Ignorance is bliss . How many people who lost loved ones or have life regrets or memories of suffering and torture would not choose a nice convenient mind wipe ? What if the Horde did the most evil or cruel things imaginable , maybe death camps for captured Eternian population before they were driven back . Would you not wipe memories of a tortured starved prisoner freed from a death camp ?
    Last edited by Lokus; October 8, 2021 at 10:12am.

  19. #19
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    I know you guys are discussing actions in-universe but I think the reality was just the writers in the real world keeping the status quo the same at all times. Animation at the time was not doing sequential story arcs or, really, any sort of real continuity for future stories or character development. It was easier for them doing that way because the shows would not have to be viewed in a particular order nor would missing one mean being lost on a story point in a later episode. There were times when there was a bit of continuity but for the most part every show ended with the characters in the same place that they were at the beginning of the show.
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  20. #20
    Evil Warrior jibernish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Abell View Post
    I know you guys are discussing actions in-universe but I think the reality was just the writers in the real world keeping the status quo the same at all times. Animation at the time was not doing sequential story arcs or, really, any sort of real continuity for future stories or character development. It was easier for them doing that way because the shows would not have to be viewed in a particular order nor would missing one mean being lost on a story point in a later episode. There were times when there was a bit of continuity but for the most part every show ended with the characters in the same place that they were at the beginning of the show.
    I made a related argument about the writing. I think it was just the writing too. The writing was drastically limited in scope. They weren't playing with the full rules and options available in real life, yet we are judging them based on real world consequences. It was stripped down - a lot, and you can't fairly judge the characters based on rules the show wasn't following. It's like in old fashioned baseball. There was a time when home runs didn't really exist. That's not the way the game was played. If you look back at the players from the dead ball era and compare them to Babe Ruth, Hank Aaron and Barry Bonds, they will come up short. But it doesn't mean they were inferior ball players. They were just playing a different game.

    If the rules of the real world were imposed on the Filmation writers, they would have written the Sorceress' actions differently too.

    But it's still kind of fun to think about. This is an interesting thread. And it's fine that people disagree with me and keep talking about it anyways

  21. #21
    Heroic Warrior Lokus's Avatar
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    Well we all witnessed what Teela did to herself after finding out the truth about Adam in revelations episode 1 .

    Sorceress did the absolute best thing for all of Eternia mind wiping her in Filmation series .

  22. #22
    Court Magician Oldfan87's Avatar
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    REVELATIONS COMIC, ISSUE #4;

    She did it again.... damn it, she did it to Teela again. And it's implied she does it a lot. Just, damn...

    Cue the cries of 'she did it to protect her!' 'She keeps the secret because she luuuuves Teela!" ugh.....

    The only reason she didn't do it in Revelation after episode one, was she had lost her power.
    Last edited by Oldfan87; October 22, 2021 at 02:35am.

  23. #23
    Evil Warrior jibernish's Avatar
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    I stopped reading after issue 1. But if the are having her do that again, that's lazy writing. It's all the writers' fault. I'm a writer and you often find yourself in these kinds of scenarios where there is an easy way to get to the ending you have in mind, and a more difficult, but better, way to get their. Smith and Co. seem to always take the easy way out.

    That's one of the reasons why I didn't pick up issue 2 after the show came out. I just don't think the writers are very good at telling a MOTU story.

  24. #24
    Evil Customizer smanomega's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jibernish View Post
    I stopped reading after issue 1. But if the are having her do that again, that's lazy writing. It's all the writers' fault. I'm a writer and you often find yourself in these kinds of scenarios where there is an easy way to get to the ending you have in mind, and a more difficult, but better, way to get their. Smith and Co. seem to always take the easy way out.

    That's one of the reasons why I didn't pick up issue 2 after the show came out. I just don't think the writers are very good at telling a MOTU story.
    You did your wallet a favor besides a cool little havoc staff origin you missed pretty much nothing even the ending sucked..

    Why is it writters always crap on each other? Strange.....

  25. #25
    Evil Warrior jibernish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smanomega View Post
    You did your wallet a favor besides a cool little havoc staff origin you missed pretty much nothing even the ending sucked..

    Why is it writters always crap on each other? Strange.....
    Ha, maybe we're jealous and petty

    Actually I think it's that when you know the craft you can see when others are taking shortcuts. And it's not always the case that those who have the job are actually good at it. I probably have a little jealousy here, but to be fair I give lots of writers credit. Jealousy never stopped me from liking something that was actually good.

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