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Thread: Batgirl

  1. #101
    Clown Prince of Darkness Benedict Judas Hel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dice View Post
    Nolan's Batman worked for me in that he was a driven, highly skilled, cerebral, strategist.
    Yet who dresses like a flying mammal. Not sure how much thought a cerebral strategist put into the idea that the best way to instill fear into the criminal underworld would be to style himself after small, winged rodent while farcically altering his voice into a low rasp. The concept naturally lends itself to comedic parody and not to "grim and gritty".

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice View Post
    It was the "real" Batman for fans like myself who never wanted things like young boy wonder.
    Yes, a small boy in green speedos, a domino mask and elf shoes would definitely be too silly. But a grown man in an opera cape and go-go boots who wears his underwear over his tights would be taken very seriously on the crime-riddled streets.

    And the "real" Batman, who is a billionaire, would hardly realistically spend his time fighting crime. Have you seen real billionaires?










    Hardly the physiques necessary to handle multiple hardened felons in hand-to-hand combat while dodging bullets fired from all directions...

    Sorry, just makes it really hard to take this character and the "realistic" approach with him. Because in "reality", he would be very dead very quickly. That's the reason no one does costumed vigilantism in real life. It's not a "realistic" option. These are fantasy characters and the reason they exist in comics. Let the fantasy elements flourish, I say.
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  2. #102
    Master of New Adventures!
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    Give me a freakin' break! This seventy-three year old 'senior citizen' who pounds out five hundred push-ups on each of three days a week and spends forty minutes on each of three days a week on his treadmill would obliterate him in any competition chooses. Name the time and place and I'm there. He's more like a Creped Crusader.


    Quote Originally Posted by Benedict Judas Hel View Post
    Yet who dresses like a flying mammal. Not sure how much thought a cerebral strategist put into the idea that the best way to instill fear into the criminal underworld would be to style himself after small, winged rodent while farcically altering his voice into a low rasp. The concept naturally lends itself to comedic parody and not to "grim and gritty".



    Yes, a small boy in green speedos, a domino mask and elf shoes would definitely be too silly. But a grown man in an opera cape and go-go boots who wears his underwear over his tights would be taken very seriously on the crime-riddled streets.

    And the "real" Batman, who is a billionaire, would hardly realistically spend his time fighting crime. Have you seen real billionaires?

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    Hardly the physiques necessary to handle multiple hardened felons in hand-to-hand combat while dodging bullets fired from all directions...

    Sorry, just makes it really hard to take this character and the "realistic" approach with him. Because in "reality", he would be very dead very quickly. That's the reason no one does costumed vigilantism in real life. It's not a "realistic" option. These are fantasy characters and the reason they exist in comics. Let the fantasy elements flourish, I say.

  3. #103
    Life is good Dice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benedict Judas Hel View Post
    Yet who dresses like a flying mammal. Not sure how much thought a cerebral strategist put into the idea that the best way to instill fear into the criminal underworld would be to style himself after small, winged rodent while farcically altering his voice into a low rasp. The concept naturally lends itself to comedic parody and not to "grim and gritty".

    Yes, a small boy in green speedos, a domino mask and elf shoes would definitely be too silly. But a grown man in an opera cape and go-go boots who wears his underwear over his tights would be taken very seriously on the crime-riddled streets.

    And the "real" Batman, who is a billionaire, would hardly realistically spend his time fighting crime. Have you seen real billionaires?
    I'm not sure I'm following you here...so him being a billionaire vigilante isn't "fantasy" enough? He also needs to be campy like the Adam West Batman? That's not what made the character successful in the comic industry. I know you already know this, heck you know this much better than me, but YES, in the comics (which is what the movie is based on) criminals DO fear the guy in the opera cape and underoos.

    So again I'm not understanding what you're saying. If everyone looks at the character Batman when they read the comics in the way you've described here, he would not be anywhere near as popular as he is today.


    Quote Originally Posted by Benedict Judas Hel View Post
    Sorry, just makes it really hard to take this character and the "realistic" approach with him. Because in "reality", he would be very dead very quickly. That's the reason no one does costumed vigilantism in real life. It's not a "realistic" option. These are fantasy characters and the reason they exist in comics. Let the fantasy elements flourish, I say.
    I'm not understanding how you're both saying this is fantasy and would never happen and then saying you want the fantasy. Does "fantasy" have to equal silliness?
    “It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”

  4. #104
    Clown Prince of Darkness Benedict Judas Hel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heeeere's Olesker! View Post
    Give me a freakin' break! This seventy-three year old 'senior citizen' who pounds out five hundred push-ups on each of three days a week and spends forty minutes on each of three days a week on his treadmill would obliterate him in any competition chooses. Name the time and place and I'm there. He's more like a Creped Crusader.
    Sorry Mr. O! You must have this much cash: $$$$$$$$$$ to participate in the "Beat Up The Batman" Ride.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dice
    I'm not sure I'm following you here...so him being a billionaire vigilante isn't "fantasy" enough?
    Oh, it's fantasy enough. It's very fantasy. My entire point is that the desire to make that fantasy "real" is not very realistic. The desire to make it "real" makes the concept of a "realistic" billionaire vigilante inherently comedic. So, if you accepted the idea of a billionaire vigilante (who dresses up as a bat, mind you...let's not forget that part) can be "realistic", then why would a brightly dressed teen sidekick named after a bird be any more "unrealistic"? Both ideas to me would seem to be equally fantastical.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice
    He also needs to be campy like the Adam West Batman?
    Camp and fantasy are 2 different genres. Camp recognizes the humor of the subject and exaggerates it. Fantasy is the imagining of things that are impossible or improbable (magic, supernatural, etc.). But neither genres are "realistic".

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice
    So again I'm not understanding what you're saying. If everyone looks at the character Batman when they read the comics in the way you've described here, he would not be anywhere near as popular as he is today.
    When Batman was first published, it was in comic books. Comic books were, back then, a medium solely directed at children. It is still considered a medium mostly for juveniles albeit the recent popularity of the films based on their exploits have made it a rather lucrative one. There have been great writers and stories that have made Batman comics popular (especially after the 70's renaissance) but again, most of the comic book stories are hardly considered "realistic". Entertaining? Yes. But "realistic". No. That's why they are in comic books.
    "Wheresoever on earth he dwells, man is prey to two weaknesses: the need to pray and the need to love."-Marquis de Sade

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  5. #105
    Life is good Dice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benedict Judas Hel View Post
    Oh, it's fantasy enough. It's very fantasy. My entire point is that the desire to make that fantasy "real" is not very realistic. The desire to make it "real" makes the concept of a "realistic" billionaire vigilante inherently comedic. So, if you accepted the idea of a billionaire vigilante (who dresses up as a bat, mind you...let's not forget that part) can be "realistic", then why would a brightly dressed teen sidekick named after a bird be any more "unrealistic"? Both ideas to me would seem to be equally fantastical.
    I guess because the idea of a man with endless inherited money (plausible), getting training throughout his youth in specialized skills and fighting techniques (plausible), and wearing all black experimental military grade armor (plausible) having success fighting low level crime isn't that far from a possible reality?
    While a small child trained in gymnastics wearing a bikini bottom and brightly colored suit fighting grown adults is much further from reality. Having an adult that wants to end crime allowing himself to put a child in this situation is also much further from reality.

    There have been other Batman movies made that are much more "fantasy" with a much less realistic Batman (and Robin). I personally didn't find them to be very good. I prefer how the Nolan Batman was portrayed much more.


    Quote Originally Posted by Benedict Judas Hel View Post
    When Batman was first published, it was in comic books. Comic books were, back then, a medium solely directed at children. It is still considered a medium mostly for juveniles albeit the recent popularity of the films based on their exploits have made it a rather lucrative one. There have been great writers and stories that have made Batman comics popular (especially after the 70's renaissance) but again, most of the comic book stories are hardly considered "realistic". Entertaining? Yes. But "realistic". No. That's why they are in comic books.
    Humor is not Batman's strong suit. He's been most successfully written as a dark brooding character. Even in his first appearance in a "child's" comic, he's investigating a murder and punches his foe straight into an acid tank, killing him.

    You keep putting the word "realistic" in quotes. In my original statement I only said "It was the "real" Batman for fans like myself". By that I only meant my personal favorite version of Batman in the comics. Are you taking it as I meant a realistic version?
    “It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”

  6. #106
    Heroic Warrior A Dalek's Avatar
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    When it comes down to Batman and reality. The simple issue is that no one could be that good at everything.

    He's a scientist, the worlds greatest detective, genius tactician, a nearly unrivaled hand to hand fighter, somehow comparable to or even better than the best athletes in the world in almost their own specialised fields, ect.

  7. #107
    President of Primus Ornclown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benedict Judas Hel View Post
    Yet who dresses like a flying mammal. Not sure how much thought a cerebral strategist put into the idea that the best way to instill fear into the criminal underworld would be to style himself after small, winged rodent while farcically altering his voice into a low rasp. The concept naturally lends itself to comedic parody and not to "grim and gritty".

    Yes, a small boy in green speedos, a domino mask and elf shoes would definitely be too silly. But a grown man in an opera cape and go-go boots who wears his underwear over his tights would be taken very seriously on the crime-riddled streets.

    Sorry, just makes it really hard to take this character and the "realistic" approach with him. Because in "reality", he would be very dead very quickly. That's the reason no one does costumed vigilantism in real life. It's not a "realistic" option. These are fantasy characters and the reason they exist in comics. Let the fantasy elements flourish, I say.
    QFT!

    Quote Originally Posted by Benedict Judas Hel View Post
    When Batman was first published, it was in comic books. Comic books were, back then, a medium solely directed at children. It is still considered a medium mostly for juveniles albeit the recent popularity of the films based on their exploits have made it a rather lucrative one. There have been great writers and stories that have made Batman comics popular (especially after the 70's renaissance) but again, most of the comic book stories are hardly considered "realistic". Entertaining? Yes. But "realistic". No. That's why they are in comic books.
    Correct again!

    And this is what is at the root of my issue with Nolan's Batman Trilogy... he legitimately wants moviegoers to take his films as a "realistic" portrayal. That is asinine. And it reveals a clear and present difference in the approach to live-action comic book movies between Marvel and DC. Marvel movies are fantastical, pure and simple. And because of this, they pay mad respect to their source material while the talent behind the movies completely understands that these are highly entertaining, imaginative and creative characters / stories based on a medium that originally took readers to places they could never -ever- go in real life.

    This is why movies like Shazam and Aquaman are giving me hope for the DCCU... they are not trying to be "realistic."
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  8. #108
    Heroic Warrior Rikki Roxx's Avatar
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    If the world, or the universe, or whatever - or a sizeable chunk of it - is about to be destroyed, and millions/billions of people are supposedly going to die horribly as a consequence of that... and the tension is constantly being undercut by one-liners and characters winking at the audience... I am not amused. I strongly prefer verisimilitude, and having the characters in a story behave believably in relation to the circumstances they find themselves in.

    Obviously the Good Guys are going to win. I'm watching a movie, so I'm already pretty aware of how it's going to end. But because of that foregone conclusion, I don't want or need to be constantly reminded that absolutely nothing TOO bad is going to happen, because I am not that sensitive. I'm trying to be immersed within the story and world of a film and I can't do that when everyone keeps stopping to crack wise while people are (supposedly) dying.

    People give some of the DC stuff a hard time because the filmmaker(s) try and inject the same amount of gravitas and consequence into the material that something like The Godfather or Apocalypse Now would have. If you really look at them, though, the stuff that they call "too dark" is simply Characters Behaving Believably In Relation To Their Circumstances. I wouldn't necessarily want to see that approach for EVERY comic book film but I'm definitely of the opinion that you can and in fact should try and aim that high SOME of the time. When your storyline is building to Darkseid, for example, nobody should be making jokes at all, if you're handling the material correctly. But obviously you wouldn't approach a Spider-Man story with the same approach.

    I'm fine with the general idea that there are different ways to do comic book movies based on the characters and storylines being presented. My problem is simply the pervasive belief that "This stuff is all silly dumb fun, and therefore every single super-hero movie needs to be a goofy romp or it's failing by default." Like when Ragnarok came out, a ton of reviews flat-out said "Every single comic book movie needs to be Exactly Like This". I strongly disagree with that. In fact I'd personally rather open up both wrists with a rusty can opener than sit through that movie, based on the little of it I've seen. If people like it, that's fine, but if every single super-hero movie was like that then I simply would never watch any super-hero movies at all.

    I like stories with stakes and consequences. To me, the idea that you can't have that because the characters wear capes is an End-User Problem.
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  9. #109
    Life is good Dice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ornclown View Post
    And this is what is at the root of my issue with Nolan's Batman Trilogy... he legitimately wants moviegoers to take his films as a "realistic" portrayal. That is asinine.
    I'd argue that with Batman, in Gotham, less fantasy is needed than your average super hero. He has no powers. Most of his villains have no powers. He's constantly going after low level and gang criminals as well. So he doesn't really need as much fantasy as a character like Shazam.

    Calling his approach "asinine" seems way too harsh considering his "The Dark Knight" is still considered by many to be one of the best, if not the best, superhero movie so far.
    “It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”

  10. #110
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    I think we've really gotten to the point where the Bill Bixby MCU is better than current year MCU

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